Why hand-sewn?

[RockyR]

Ron...

I don't think Barb was referring to Kathy Lare (although we do know that she did graduate from the Keith School). I haven't seen her work in person, but from your words (and many others), I hear that she does beautiful work and this should NOT be seen as a dig on her. I have heard nothing but very good things about Kathy. This also is NOT an attack on Ron... just a friendly point / counterpoint.

I think what Barb is pointing out is the nature of the "School". If Barb and I got together and started the "American School of Kiltmaking" and "certified" each other, would that make it "legit"? She's pointing out that there's no standard for what is right and no governing body on what is taught (like any high school in the states or college). She's skeptical in the fact that you pay money, go to classes and get a "kiltmaking diploma". That's all.

While the Keith School is obviously trying to create that standard, who is to say that they're right or that the standard they're setting is the way it should be?

I know others who have said to have been trained by "master kiltmakers" (not the Keith School to my knowledge) whose final products are not sellable.

I also know that Barb was trained by Elsie's classes on how to make a hand sewn kilt (she took maticulous notes in class and with Elsie's help, wrote and published her widely acclaimed book). If you complete Elsie's class and get a certificate, does that make you "certified" or "Legit"? If so, who regulates what gets taught? What Makes Elsie right and another way wrong?

Did Geoffery (Taylor) or Alexis Malcolm graduate from the Keith School (I honestly have no idea if they did or not)?

Just some thoughts to ponder...

[Riverkilt]

Thanks Rocky,

Sorry for any unnecessary comotion. I tried to let this one lay. I really did...but what wouldn't go away for me was my perception of a dig.

I recognize that the original mention of certification was generic. But, Kathy is the only "certified by Keith School" kiltmaker in the U.S. and she and Barb are at least distant competitors.

Words like "invented" "advertising", "cynacism", "more special", and "grates" seemed like a dig.

It also seemed out of sync with the genial relations between kiltmakers on this board.

My perception, maybe Barb can clarify.

I am an intelligent, aware, adult and can well evaluate the worth of a person's certification. I can also understand both sides of the certification issue.

My sense is that certification by the Keith School of Kiltmaking is hard won and not to be belittled.

I see no reason why anyone, in any field, obtaining a certification should not advertise it to prospective customers.

Ron

[Barb T]

I certainly didn't mean this as a dig against _anyone_ who has graduated from the Keith School. And I honestly don't think of Kathy Lare and me as being "in competition". We both make kilts, and I don't resent it when someone chooses her to make a kilt.

What _does_ rankle some is when someone who knows neither of us sees the "certified" and assumes that one of us has chosen to be certified by some independent accrediting agency and the other either hasn't chosen to be certified or isn't good enough to be certified. If independent certification were available, then a lack of certification means something. For example, in many states, geologists have to be licensed, and state requirements have been set up and enacted into law. Saying that you are a licensed professional geologist means that you have met the state standards.

If, on the other hand, Hamilton College decided unilaterally in New York State (which does not require professional licensing for geologists) to define a list of criteria for being a professional geologist and then issued a certificate for all those graduating from Hamilton with a geology major that says "certified geologist", only geo majors who buy an education from Hamilton would have the opportunity to be certified. Under those circumstances, the fact that other geologists graduating in the state aren't certified doesn't mean a thing.

The same goes for kiltmaking. It means something if someone is certified. It doesn't mean _anything_ if someone _isn't_ certified. I applaud those who have the time and money to earn the Keith School's certification. I just wish that it were more widely understood that this is the _only_ way to earn that certification and that _not_ having it means something very different than it would if certification were done by an independent accrediting agency.

Barb

[Riverkilt]

Thanks for clearing up the "dig" part.

Kathy's the only one I've run across using her certification in her advertising, but that's over here stateside where she's the only one...

I certainly understand all the arguments for and against certification and how their value must be examined. Its been brought up before a few months ago.

Never heard of anyone who earned any type of certification, in any field, not promoting that to the public. Think its done to show pride in accomplishment and reassure prospective clients - not dig competitors.

Me, after researching some, I'm impressed by a certificate from the Keith School of Kiltmaking.

Think that's the only kiltmaking certification out there so far...? So, that's what we're talking about.

Ron

[Barb T]

I think absolutely that anyone who has earned a certification should display it proudly and advertise it. And what it takes to get certified at the Keith School is impressive in terms of time and commitment of resources.

My only beef is that it appears not to be generally understood that certification is unique to the Keith School - they established certification and are the only ones who certify. As far as I know, it's not possible to take an exam and/or present your work to an independent examining board, for example, in order to become certified. Given the circumstances, it doesn't seem fair to me to ding someone for not being certified or, conversely, to automatically view someone who is certified as being a better kiltmaker.

And, if something has happened in the last couple of years and certification is, in fact, more widely available, please let me know!!

Barb

[bubba]

Barb, send me a kilt, 42 x 43 x 22.5, and I'll evaluate it and if it passes the Bubba testing I'll certify you. :rolleyes:

[Barb T]

Hmmm - interesting thought!! What shall we call the Bubba certification?!?

Barb

[Riverkilt]

There may be something up. A quick Google turns up Carol Fitzherbert with MacIsaac Kiltmakers up in St. Peter's, Nova Scotia and a LOT of Keith Kilt School certified kiltmakers in Scotland advertising their services with the Keith Kilt School certification prominent.

Many of the Scottish kiltmakers certified by the Keith Kilt School have a link on their webpage to the Scottish Qualifications Authority...so there's apparently more oversite to the certification than just the school itself.

I've yet to be able to find the kilt part of the SQA yet though...a pretty extensive site overseening many areas.

Ron

[Riverkilt]

Scottish Qualifications Authority
The Scottish Qualifications Authority is the national body in Scotland responsible for the development, accreditation, assessment, and certification of qualifications other than degrees

And then there's Helean Kiltmakers in Dunedin, New Zealand where kiltmaker Ann Corey Advertises on her webpage

Only Kiltmakers in the Southern Hemisphere
to hold the Scottish Qualifications Authority Certificate
in Traditional Handcraft Kiltmaking skills.

Hector Russel's website proudly advertises

SQA's Traditional Handcraft Kiltmaking AwardThe Hector Russell kiltmaking workshop was recently approved by the Scottish Qualification Authority to offer its kiltmakers the SQA's Traditional Handcraft Kiltmaking Award. Hector Russell Kiltmaker becomes the first retail kiltmaker to offer its staff this qualification which will provide them with the industry's first nationally recognised training award.



Kathy Lare's website speaks to her kiltmaking training.

Kathy began to order so much tartan from the mills in Scotland that she caught the attention of Master Kiltmaker Robert McBain of the Keith Kilt School. McBain sent an invitation to her to attend the kilt school, in the mill town of Keith, Scotland, the only school for kiltmaking in the world. The master kiltmaker was the former kiltmaker for the Scottish Regiment the Gordon Highlanders, and the only certified teacher in the world qualified to train for the Scottish Vocation Educational Council (SCOTVEC) award. She has become the first American to attend the school and the first fully certified kiltmaker in North America attaining the Scottish Qualifications Authority Award in Traditional handcraft and Kilt Making Skills. Returning to Scotland in May of 1999 she studied the unique crafting of the military box pleated kilt of the Scottish regiments and achieved an award in Traditional Handcraft Kilt Manufacturing. This professional development award paves the way towards becoming a Master Kiltmaker, which was almost a dying breed now in Scotland.


I just don't think the efforts to minimize these credentials are valid.

Ron