Difference between an Ancient and Great Kilt?

[Oatmeal Savage]

Newbe question alert! Could someone please tell me the difference between an Ancient Kilt and Great Kilt? Which one is historically accurate for the 18th century?

Thanks again
Kevin

[macwilkin]

Newbe question alert! Could someone please tell me the difference between an Ancient Kilt and Great Kilt? Which one is historically accurate for the 18th century?

Thanks again
Kevin

Kevin,

Matt Newsome's articles should be of some help to you in answering your query:

http://www.albanach.org/kilt.html

http://www.albanach.org/generations.html

Cheers,

Todd

[MacWage]

In short:

Great Kilt=Belted Plaid (2 names for same thing)
This is the one that is historically proven from 1596-1800.
See "Rob Roy" with Liam Neeson (sp?) and Jessica Lang and Tim Roth (among others) for a decent representation in an easy media form.



As for the "Ancient Kilt," I am assuming this is refering to the offering by Celtic Croft/Kilts-n-Stuff.
http://www.kilts-n-stuff.com/Kilts/ancient_kilts.html
Note the first line on the page:
These are the same style kilts worn in the movie Braveheart.
followed by:
Depending on who you talk to, they may be historically accurate or not . . .

It is an attempt to make a "pre-belted plaid" form, which is not really proven by any real documentation, though it has the public imagination and would not het much arguement at most Ren Faires (though it might at an SCA event).

These are based on the movie, which has many historical dress errors, as well as historical IMPOSIBILITIES and anacronisms. Despite this, it remains one of my favorite movies. My biggest "issue" is the end, which is a slight to Robert Bruce. I even wrote a new ending that gives Bruce his proper credit.

Now, back to topic . . .

The questions asked:
Newbe question alert! Could someone please tell me the difference between an Ancient Kilt and Great Kilt? Which one is historically accurate for the 18th century?

Part 1: I hope the above answers that one.
Part 2: The historically accurate one for the 18th C. is definately the Great Kilt (though I prefer the term "belted plaid" for the same thing)

Hope that helps.

[Caradoc]

Great Kilt=Belted Plaid (2 names for same thing)
This is the one that is historically proven from 1596-1800.
See "Rob Roy" with Liam Neeson (sp?) and Jessica Lang and Tim Roth (among others) for a decent representation in an easy media form.

Not quite. The "belted plaid" in "Rob Roy" was two pieces - one used for the bottom, one used for the top, and NOT stitched together.

Other than that, it looked reasonably close to a belted plaid (or bhreacain feileadh).

[MacWage]

Not quite. The "belted plaid" in "Rob Roy" was two pieces - one used for the bottom, one used for the top, and NOT stitched together.

Other than that, it looked reasonably close to a belted plaid (or bhreacain feileadh).

In Rob Roy, there are a couple kilt types. At the beginning, it is a "regular" belted plaid (as can be seen as he takes a dip in the loch and "comes on" to Mary. He also wears the 2 peice one, clearly shown around the "fight" at the end. One is an attempt at a philabeg, but leans more to modern kilts than historic philabegs. Remember, the early philabegs were just belted plaids without the top half attatched. All in all, not too bad for Hollywood. In comparison, the 2 look a bit different and hang different in some scenes, though others look like something in between (making it hard to tell which is which.


For the newbies to have any idea what I just wrote:
philabeg-> Small kilt/little kilt-> as opposed to Great kilt

The original belted plaid was roughly 54 inches across (top to bottom) and measured 3 or 4 yards up to 6 yards long, with most in the 4 yard range. The typical weaving loom would make 27 inch wide fabric, so two lengths were sewn together lengthwise to make a belted plaid.
To make a philabeg was simply to either rip the seem or NOT SEW the two parts together. By the way, there are some references to what is probably (always a matter of debate) a philabeg decades before "that Englishman" was ever in Scotland.

[cbiegel]

Is it true that men wearing the philabeg might still wear the top half for practical reasons like keeping warn etc?

[Caradoc]

Is it true that men wearing the philabeg might still wear the top half for practical reasons like keeping warn etc?

Today we call that a "fly plaid."

[cbiegel]

Ah, I thought that was much smaller; more of a decoration.

[MacWage]

Modern fly plaids are a smaller derivative of the upper part. I am not sure how it would be held in place, the older detattched upper part that is (though a reenactor may know more than I in this matter). Generally, I think they just adopted a wool or jacket, which then further pushed the replacement of the belted plaid by the philabeg and the modern stitched kilt.
I KNOW that is what happened in the Brit Army. It is reasonably safe to assume the same in the civi-world too.

A Piper's plaid is also another modern form, though held more like a folded blanket than the upper part of a belted plaid.

So, Oatmeal Savage, have we satisfied your curiousity, or shall we continue?

[Caradoc]

Modern fly plaids are a smaller derivative of the upper part. I am not sure how it would be held in place, the older detattched upper part that is (though a reenactor may know more than I in this matter).

I've never seen a two-part "belted plaid" in the wild. Just in Hollyweird.