Tunes of Glory

[AL-58]

Just a thought here... Since the first film-captures we were shown are in black and white, is it possible that maybe the movie itself was originally black and white? Maybe the film has been colourized, and the colours they used weren't quite right? Like I said, just a thought. I don't know if the film has always been colour, or even how the colourization process works.

The promo stills used to promote B/W movies were often colour photos. So it is possible that the colour stills you have are still accurate and not from a colourised movie.

Al

[Kid Cossack]

How have I lived so long without seeing this movie? I noticed that Sir Alec Guinness referred to the regiment as "the friendly regiment" . . . could that provide a clue?

James Kenneway, the author of Tunes of Glory (he also wrote the screenplay), served in the Gordons, if I remember correctly, so no doubt the majority of the inspiration for the story came from that regiment. I have read that the kilts were Cameron of Erracht as well, but I'm not totally convinced -- I still wonder if they went with another tartan to avoid making any particular regiment's members mad.

Regards,

Todd

[McMurdo]

I found the following on www.imdb.com
-----------------------------------------------

Trivia for
Tunes of Glory (1960)
The name of the Highland regiment portrayed is never mentioned, although the screenwriter served in the Gordon Highlanders. However, the same regimental tartan (designed for this film) and bonnet badges were worn by the Highland regiment in _Carry On Up the Khyber (1968)_ , and so the regiment in Tunes of Glory may well be the "3rd Foot & Mouth."


John Mills wore his regimental kilt once more, when he portrayed a Highland Officer in a wartime P.O.W. sketch on the Morecambe and Wise.


Alec Guinness was offered the role of Lt. Col. Barrow, but asked for the role of Maj. Sinclair instead; he then suggested John Mills for the other role.


This was the fourth and final film together for Alec Guinness and Kay Walsh (though they both later appeared in Scrooge (1970) they shared no scenes).


Film debut of Susannah York.


The Highland Regiment in the film is un-named but based on The Gordon Highlanders. The writer of the original novel, and the screenplay, James Kennaway did his National Service in the Gordons in the late 1940s and based his characters on the book from the officers of the 1st and 2nd Bns when both units were merged in Edinburgh in 1948. In the film they wear the uniforms of the recently amalgamated Cameron Highlanders (amalgamated with the more senior Seaforth Hldrs in 1961 and therefore a rich source of army surplus kilts & Cameron badges for film and TV for many years to come.) Reference is made to to the Camerons in Inverness during the film to make it clear the unit is not the Cameron Highlanders.

[Riverkilt]

Aye McMurdo, ain't it wonderful what a little googling can find.

And, The Cameron and Macdonald tartans can be quite similar. My 3 great grandfather John Macdonald was married to Catherine Cameron when they were shipped out from Skye to Nova Scotia in the clearances.

Ron

[macwilkin]

Couple things to point out though -- IMDB provides no sources for its trivia, goofs, etc. I'm still not convinced that the tartan is Cameron of Erracht just because IMDB says so. If it is true about the kilts being used in "Carry on up the Khyber", a sort of "MASH meets the Northwest Frontier", then I doubt they were authentic regimental tartans.

The author, James Kennaway, was an ex-Gordon, and no doubt had to be very careful in not associating his regiment with the events in the movie (although there were two references -- Dusty singing "A Gordon for Me!", and Jock referring to "The Cock of the North", the Gordon's regimental march -- "yon's a cheesy tune, you'll no play that one."). The regimental system of the British Army was very unforgiving to those who were perceived as "disloyal"; For example, those officers who left their regiments and joined "elite" units like the SAS, Commandos, etc. in WWII were often given the silent treatment upon their return. This explains Jock's contempt for Barrow's leaving the battalion to teach at Sandhurst and serve in the Pacific.

George Macdonald Fraser, also an ex-Gordon, did not ID the regiment in his MacAuslan series for similar reasons.

When Jock says that the battalion is the "friendly" one, it's not a nickname per se, but a reference that the battalion is generally friendly and welcoming. Some battalions did take their own names; the 2nd Battalion of the Cameronians, for example, referred to themselves as The Scottish Rifles, since the 2nd Battalion was its own regiment before the Cardwell Reforms of 1881. -- Farwell, "Mr. Kipling's Army", Baynes, "Morale" (about the 2nd Scottish Rifles).

Cheers,

Todd

[Seaforth Piper]

I've seen the movie MANY times (it was, and perhaps still is, 'required watching' for subalterns in the Seaforths of Canada and we used to puzzle over the tartan and cap-badge as well.

The cap badge looks a wee bit like the old Cameronian badge, and I wonder if the director deliberately didn't give the viewer a clear look at the badge throughout the film, knowing that if he used an extant badge then the 'other' regiments would hold up any and all of the foibles and shortcomings and sniff that it was 'typical of that horrible lot' and the legitimate wearers of that badge would cast about for windows to smash and heads to butt. (ask any former member of 1st or 2nd Bn Black Watch of Canada about one night in a certain valley in Ontario!)

Likewise the tartan. In some scenes it sort of/kind of looks like Cameron of Erracht, but less so in other scenes. I suspect that the producers chose a sett and had the kilts made up. Call it MacBBC, perhaps.

The British film industry used to be very careful about accuracy regarding films featuring any aspect of military or Empire - there were too many people in the audience who would laugh them out of court if they got it wrong.

There was a famous scene in "Ruggles of the River" (I believe) where the Native Bearer (incidentally played by Jomo Kenyata, who later became Prime Minister of Kenya) makes an epic run through the enemy lines, only to collapse at Bwana's feet and gasp out his message. the scene was supposed to be fraught with tension, but every time they showed it in the UK they had to stop the film until the laughter died down because enough people spoke Kikuyu to interprete his lines as; " I really don't think that I'm being paid enough for this part!"

Hence a tartan and badge that wasn't quite like any real regiment's, so the professional fault-finders like me would just shut up and watch the film!

Incidentally, the movie "Drum" (starring Victor MacLauglin and Raymond Massey) features the Gordon Highlanders.

Amalgamations are never popular with the soldiers, and the Cameronians/Scottish Rifles were no exception. Almost without exception after the Cardwell Reforms in 1881, the battalions of the 'new' regiments continueed to refer to themselves by their old names and numbers, answering only to the new names in official correspondence.

[Fearnest]

What great information from all of you on this movie! (An old movie buff, I'm chagrinned to say I've yet to see it!) I'll have to hunt down a copy soonest.

[macwilkin]

I've seen the movie MANY times (it was, and perhaps still is, 'required watching' for subalterns in the Seaforths of Canada and we used to puzzle over the tartan and cap-badge as well.

The cap badge looks a wee bit like the old Cameronian badge, and I wonder if the director deliberately didn't give the viewer a clear look at the badge throughout the film, knowing that if he used an extant badge then the 'other' regiments would hold up any and all of the foibles and shortcomings and sniff that it was 'typical of that horrible lot' and the legitimate wearers of that badge would cast about for windows to smash and heads to butt. (ask any former member of 1st or 2nd Bn Black Watch of Canada about one night in a certain valley in Ontario!)

Likewise the tartan. In some scenes it sort of/kind of looks like Cameron of Erracht, but less so in other scenes. I suspect that the producers chose a sett and had the kilts made up. Call it MacBBC, perhaps.

The British film industry used to be very careful about accuracy regarding films featuring any aspect of military or Empire - there were too many people in the audience who would laugh them out of court if they got it wrong.

There was a famous scene in "Ruggles of the River" (I believe) where the Native Bearer (incidentally played by Jomo Kenyata, who later became Prime Minister of Kenya) makes an epic run through the enemy lines, only to collapse at Bwana's feet and gasp out his message. the scene was supposed to be fraught with tension, but every time they showed it in the UK they had to stop the film until the laughter died down because enough people spoke Kikuyu to interprete his lines as; " I really don't think that I'm being paid enough for this part!"

Hence a tartan and badge that wasn't quite like any real regiment's, so the professional fault-finders like me would just shut up and watch the film!

Incidentally, the movie "Drum" (starring Victor MacLauglin and Raymond Massey) features the Gordon Highlanders.

Amalgamations are never popular with the soldiers, and the Cameronians/Scottish Rifles were no exception. Almost without exception after the Cardwell Reforms in 1881, the battalions of the 'new' regiments continueed to refer to themselves by their old names and numbers, answering only to the new names in official correspondence.

I happened to be reading John Baynes' Morale: a study of Men and Courage this evening; the book deals with the 2nd Scottish Rifles in 1915; Baynes's father served with the regiment during WWI, and Baynes himself followed in his father's footsteps until the Cameronians were disbanded in 1968. He has some excellent information about the 2nd Battalion, the old 90th Regiment, which always referred to itself as the Scottish Rifles, and never as the 2nd Cameronians.

Regards,

Todd

[macwilkin]

I happened to be watching "ToG" this morning, and noticed in the cocktail party scene that when Barrow (John Mills) is talking to Sir Alan, the country gent, about the barracks party, Sir Alan makes a comment about "the same wi' the Camerons up at Inverness" -- so the battalion in the film is not with the Camerons, since traditionally, of a regiments two battalions, one usually remained on "home service" whilst the other was deployed -- and after the war, many regiments were reduced in strength.

Regards,

Todd

[Seaforth Piper]

the film's a real study in military sociology. the tensions and politics of the Officer's Mess are (uncomfortably) authentic.

The reference to "the friendly regiment' is a particularly telling 'dig' ( as a Brigade Staff Officer I had to deal with a unit that liked to think of itself as hospitable and presented that facade to the world - whereas within the Sergeant's and Officer's Messes it was famous for (metaphorically) 'killing its wounded and eating its own dead'...

All the more reason to present the film's regiment as a fictional entity, so the viewers would concentrate on the film as 'Morality Tale' and not as an indictment of a real unit.