Advice on buying traditional full dress

[bchunter]

Like you, I too surfed the net and read up on various kilt makers in the US and the UK. After borrowing a friend's kilt that was made by Geoffrey (tailor) about 20 years ago and being totally impressed on how well it looked, I ordered both my kilt and PC jacket from them. The service was excellent. They have a toll free phone number from the US and I actually talked to them to place the order. I've got Stillwater kilts also, but nothing comes close to the Geoffrey (tailor) products.

[Nanook]

Most agree that a tweed kilt jacket, the equivalent of the Saxon "sport coat", is not a formal garment.

The tweed "kilt jacket" is for casual day wear. Its really, in my opinion, the most useful jacket for day use as one is not dressed up nor down.

The Argyll jacket is an entirely different creature -- neither "fish, flesh nor fowl", it is roughly equivalent to a dark suit, yet it can be worn with a formal shirt and black tie -- although my good friend the "clothes horse" disagrees with this, because the Argyll has notched lapels, and true formal wear should only have rounded ones. Personally, I think they look better with a dress shirt and a necktie, but again, that's just me.

The Argyll jacket (I take one means black here) is really somewhere between dark-suit and dinner jacket. Not really suited to anything really formal but "hand on your hearts": When was the last time ANYONE here went kilted to a formal affair? Most formal events have their own special sets of norms. Most do accept kilts (like the Royal Enclosure at Ascot as "National dress" in lieu of morning suit) but tend to call for a level of ceremony quite a bit more formal than the pedestrian "Prince Charlie". Formal means, afterall, "Formalized".

On the whole one is probably better dressed with an Argyll (black Barathea) jacket than with a Prince Charlie (which overshoots most events and horribly undershoots anything really formal). When a black Argyll is too much then instead of navy (or green) I'd suggest tweed.

I personally don't like the look of a fly plaid with an Argyll jacket

I personally don't like the look of a fly plaid with a Prince Charlie either.. Flying plaid are, I think, when done right more like the a bit of chocolate sprinkles on a fancy cake.

[Chef]

The obvious problem is that unlike most men's standard wordrobes their kilt wardrobe usually doesn't have the subtleties of formality. They buy there kilt outfit for whatever reason they wear it the most (i.e. black-tie dinners, highland games) and then they try to make it work when they need to wear it for something other than what they bought it for. I have seen examples such as a standard tux jacket and black tie with a kilt at night or a PC with a button down shirt and wool tie for a day event.

So what works for what has been fairly well covered but here are my $.02.

Tweed jackets can span from fairly casual sport coat use to grey suit particularly if you get a matching waistcoat and get the sleeves with the dressier PC style cuffs (often called a Braemar Jacket)

Black Argyle Jackets are supposedly the most versatile jacket and probably the reason they are my least favourite, I just don't think they do anything particularly well. However if you want a jacket that can be used almost any time this is the one to go with. Again I prefer the simlper cuffs. I like the black waistcoat but not for formal events. If you do use it for black tie I would say skip the plaid. it's a matter of personal taste but I think the Argyle is better for formal events if you don't bring more attention to it. I own an Argyle and it is the one I wear the least I find it rarely is needed with the other choices I have although I will occcasionally wear it for an event that calls for business attire in the evening.

PC's are the standard black tie jacket and do a good job since it is the most common kilt jaclet worn for evening dress. Therefore it works well in the same situation where tuxes would have all the men dressed alike. I regularly wear mine at black tie functions. With the addition of a white mess dress waistcoat and a white tie it can do just fine for a white tie event as well.

Doublets are the dressiest jackets. The regulation is a slightly fancier PC and works best for black tie however a Sherrifmuir or a Montrose is suitable for white tie affairs esspecially when match with a plaid. AMy Montrose is my favourite jacket for formal affairs.

[arrogcow]

My personal thoughts on the jacket are to simply think of it in terms of their tux counterpoints. Tuxes come in three basic styles and all are based on lapel.
They are shawl, notch and peak. So the comparison is:

Shawl = Brian Baru
Peak = PC
Notch = Argyle

And if you go to any tux store you will find that the vast majority are the notch style (now back in my days of tux wearing I did prefer the shawl and I do intend to get a Brian Baru at some point for that reason). The only other real difference is the shiny bits. The PC and BB both have many more bits of decorative (useless) buttons. If that floats your boat, great, but again look at the usual tux - no shiny bits at all so you're already ahead of the game with an Argyle. And if you really want the shiny bits get a Bramer jacket which is basically an Argyle with more shiny bits.

Yes PC and BB are more closely fitted, but that is a style thing. And yes they usually come with a waistcoat (vest), but you can always add one to an Argyle. So basicaly it just comes down to what style you like.

For formal events black is a must, forget the goofy colors (where would you wear that?). Tweed (though ususally more expensive) is also out, though you should have one as well (black to anything formal, tweed everywhere else).

As for how you'll be received, while I can't speak for across the pond, in the US it won't matter. I attend a lot of formal events (wife is a professional fundraiser, so we go to gala's galore). I'm usually the only kilted guy, and the largest group was 4 (including me), so franklly no one knows what kilt formal is/isn't (and all of it - including what I just said - is only opinion). As for Celtic events, you will find guys from doublets down to t-shirts with their kilts, so you can dress to what ever level you feel comfortable with.

Which brings me to fly plaids and doublets. My personal opinion is that it is these things that keep kilts as a costume in most peoples eyes. This was the fashon of the 1700s for goodness sake. If you didn't have a kilt would you go to a formal event dressed like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hamadeus11.jpg

Adam

[Panache]

...If you didn't have a kilt would you go to a formal event dressed like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hamadeus11.jpg

Depends on the formal event. I think that outfit Emperor Joseph II is wearing is rather stylish. I'd probably add a gold hilted and bejeweled small sword to complete the ensemble though.

Cheers

Panache

[Chef]

My personal thoughts on the jacket are to simply think of it in terms of their tux counterpoints. Tuxes come in three basic styles and all are based on lapel.
They are shawl, notch and peak. So the comparison is:

Shawl = Brian Baru
Peak = PC
Notch = Argyle

The only problem with the comparison is that the Argyle is made of a heavier wool and is missing the satin lapels and formal finnish that are standard on tuxes and PC style jackets. While it will pass for evening wear it is definitely not as dressy a jacket as the others. While you can ad a waistcoat it as well does not have the finish of evening wear.

Which brings me to fly plaids and doublets. My personal opinion is that it is these things that keep kilts as a costume in most peoples eyes. This was the fashon of the 1700s for goodness sake. If you didn't have a kilt would you go to a formal event dressed like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hamadeus11.jpg

Adam

Since the history of the tailored kilt starts in 1792 it is probably a stretch to say that kilt Doublets are a style of the 1700's. As with almost everything to do with a kilt they have changed over the years. Also like most kilt wear, civilian doublets mirror certain styles of military dress with doublets being a still quite popular style not only in UK but even in the US. If you check you will see that a General Officer's Mess Dress in the US Marines is very similar to the Sheriffmuir Doublet and I doubt that most people would say that Marine Commandant, General Hagee was wearing a costume to formal events.

[thescot]

I would never own a black argyl jacket since it really is "neither fish, flesh, nor fowl." The jacket is OK, but, as stated above, since it's the most owned and worn, I don't want one. It's almost as if one wears it because one doesn't know what to wear!

For "dressy" day events, my tweed jacket and waistcoat look better than an argyl any day. Add a black tie, and it's almost dressy. And in the US, when style and grace are dying a slow death, I'd be dressier than almost anyone else in the tweed. Even after dark, it's OK around here (Atlant area) to wear tweed when others are in sports coats.

For "dressy," I'd do the prince charlie. It's exactly the same as a tuxedo--not formal dressy, just plain. You can add a white vest and tie and look pretty spiffy, though. And never--I mean never--wear a plaid with a charlie. You'd look loke someone who wanted to dress up but didn't know how.

For really "put on the dog" dressing, I wear a Montrose double-breasted doublet with a beachen feile. The extra wool piled over the shoulder attached with an amethest brooch, the lace at the throat and sleeves, and the fur sporran will be as dressy as anyone you will meet. You'll never be under dressed in that.

That's all my own opinions, and few will agree. I must add the caveat that I am quite old and conserviative.

I guess we have all shown our own prejudices here, and I guess you are over adivsed. So, have some fun. Decide on your own level of formality, and go for it. You'll look pretty sharp in anything that invloves a kilt!

[arrogcow]

Since the history of the tailored kilt starts in 1792 it is probably a stretch to say that kilt Doublets are a style of the 1700's. As with almost everything to do with a kilt they have changed over the years. Also like most kilt wear, civilian doublets mirror certain styles of military dress with doublets being a still quite popular style not only in UK but even in the US. If you check you will see that a General Officer's Mess Dress in the US Marines is very similar to the Sheriffmuir Doublet and I doubt that most people would say that Marine Commandant, General Hagee was wearing a costume to formal events.

from the kiltstores description of doublets

Doublets

Based on the snug fitting jacket worn through until the mid 17th century, ...

[Chef]

from the kiltstores description of doublets
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"Doublets

Based on the snug fitting jacket worn through until the mid 17th century, ..."

You are correct of course on the origin of the doublet itself (a point which I actually am aware of). The problem is I did not say what I meant correctly (that's what I get for doing it late at night) and for that I apologise.

The point I was trying to make was that since the modern kilt (and thus modern kilt outfit) does not come into use until the end of the 1700's in is really incorrect to say that it is a 1700's costume. True as you stated in is based on a garment popular thorough the mid 1600's. However almost all garments came from the past. Saying a Doublet is a 1700's costume is no more correct than saying that wearing a suit is wearing a costume from the from the picture you linked to. While those are the predecessors of todays suits (and therefore the suit jacket styles worn with kilts) the garment has evolved as has the doublet. With the possible exception of of the jabot (and even that has evolced a great deal) there is as little in common with the doublets of the past as your PC or Brian Baru has with the example you gave us.

The modern doublet is a derivation of what is still used as a military garment as is the PC jacket.

[scoutniagara]

My brother's doublet doesn't fit him any more, but it was always, too hot, and you're unable to open it up to cool down. In Canada, most functions are inside during our winter, or in summer, outside. For many of those functions, you'll find the doublet, too warm, and you'll be unable to adjust for temperature.