Miltary Dress

[Chaplain Harris]

I noticed a couple of Marines in kilts. How does the US military view the idea and also, are there any other military groups dress (even if just when off duty) in kilts? I was just wondering. Read a good thing about the 79th Reg. during Civial War, but it was more for dress then for battle.

I know it maybe more accepted in the UK or Canada, I was just wondering.

[thescot]

There is no official Marine Corps kilt uniform. Any you may have seen were either off-dauty Marine pipers (or some such) or the Marine Pipe and Drum Corps which is made up of former Marines. There is a move to create an official piper MOS in the Corps, but as far as I know it hasn't gone anywhere yet. (See the article about that here: http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,82507,00.html)

There was a Marine pipe band in Ireland during WW II, but I don't think it was actually "official" in that the Corps never created an MOS or billets for it.

I think that there is some official recognition from other branches as far as special bands or parade units, but I am unsure about that. I do know that the Naval Academy has a pipe and drum corps (http://www.usna.edu/Pipes/ ), but that's about the extent of my knowledge beyond the military (i.e., the USMC).

[macwilkin]

This is taken from the US Coast Guard Pipes & Drums web site FAQ:

Doesn't the provisions of Title 10, U.S. Code prohibit the wearing of military uniform items with civilian clothing such as kilts?
No, that question contains two popular misconceptions. First, the provisions of Title 10, Sections 771, only prohibit the wearing of the uniform or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine Corps, or of a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of such uniforms, by any person who is not a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine Corps. Although it prohibits the wearing of the uniform or articles of uniform by civilians, it says nothing about the wearing of civilian clothing with the uniform. That misconception arose during the 1960's and 1970's when that law was used to prohibit the wearing of uniform items by civilians who often combined wearing articles of uniform with civilian clothes.

Second, a kilt, when worn as a prescribed part of a uniform, is not "civilian clothing." After all, an "article of uniform" is nothing more than an article of clothing of particular pattern, color or appearance which is prescribed to be worn as part of the official or distinctive clothes or outfit of a particular group, such as police, firefighters or members of a military organization, to identify them as members of that group or organization. Kilts, of a specified tartan, have been worn as part of the uniform by members of the Armed Forces of Great Britain, Scotland, Ireland, Canada and other nations for hundreds of years. Kilts have also been regularly worn as part of U.S. military uniforms since the earliest days of the Republic.* When prescribed as part of the uniform of a military organization, a kilt is no more an article of "civilian clothing" than a white dress shirt, tuxedo shirt, neck tie, pair of trousers or similar item which, when so prescribed and worn, become part of the uniform.

What precedent is there for wearing a kilt as part of a U.S. military uniform?
There is plenty of precedent. In addition to historic records of pipers wearing kilts with U.S. military uniforms going back to the American Revolution *and U.S. Civil War, the modern era has seen official recognition of U.S. Army pipe bands wearing uniform kilts with U.S. military uniforms organized by the 2nd infantry Division, the 5th Infantry Division, the 8th Infantry Division, the 31st infantry Division, the 42nd Infantry Division, and the Sixth Army. The U.S. Army currently recognizes the right of members of the pipe bands of 91stDivision, U.S. Army Reserve, California National Guard and Oregon National Guard Reserve to wear kilts of a prescribed pattern with their Army uniforms.

The U.S. Air Force Pipe Band wore their uniform kilts with articles of U.S. Air Force uniform at the White House and when performing through out the 1960's as does the U.S. Air Force Reserve Pipe Band today.

Moreover, the official uniform regulations of all the Armed Forces recognize uniforms worn by members of bands as a "special uniform situation." For example, the red jackets worn by members of the Marine Corps Band have no parallel in the uniforms worn by other members of the Marine Corps and, therefore, would be "civilian clothes" if not prescribed as part of their uniform by the uniform regulations. Members of the U.S. Army and U.S. Navy Bands as well as members of the U.S. Coast Guard Band are also authorized to wear articles of uniform and insignia that differ significantly from those prescribed in their respective uniform regulations for other members of their service.

-- http://www.uscgpipeband.org/faq.php

*Need to see much more documentation on this point; there is very little evidence of wide-spread use of Highland attire in American military history.

Cheers,

Todd

[Fearnest]

This is taken from the US Coast Guard Pipes & Drums web site FAQ:


Doesn't the provisions of Title 10, U.S. Code prohibit the wearing of military uniform items with civilian clothing such as kilts?
No, that question contains two popular misconceptions. First, the provisions of Title 10, Sections 771, only prohibit the wearing of the uniform or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine Corps, or of a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of such uniforms, by any person who is not a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine Corps. Although it prohibits the wearing of the uniform or articles of uniform by civilians, it says nothing about the wearing of civilian clothing with the uniform.

That's true as far as it goes... each service then has service regulations which cover the proper wear of the uniform, which regulates how, when, and where the servicemembers may wear the uniform.

In the army, for example, "mixing" civilian clothing and uniform pieces is expressly forbidden, except for common items such as gloves, boots, etc. Also allowed (starting late in the 90s) is the wear of portions of the army physical fitness uniform with civilian clothing.

Generally speaking, a unit commander cannot just decide items of civilian wear (e.g. kilts) are now "uniform" and allow/direct their wear. (That's what killed the black beret for tankers back in 1979 - too many people playing "loosey-goosey" with uniform regulations.)

Having said that, I also know there are always exceptions - notably The First Battalion (Reinforced), Third United States Infantry (The Old Guard). They have many special uniforms and altered regulations, but it's based on their mission needs (and is authorized at Department-level).

I can't speak for the other services, but I can't imagine they'd be "up" for letting every unit "roll their own" in uniforming.

[arrogcow]

Generally speaking, a unit commander cannot just decide items of civilian wear (e.g. kilts) are now "uniform" and allow/direct their wear. (That's what killed the black beret for tankers back in 1979 - too many people playing "loosey-goosey" with uniform regulations.)

That and too many generals that started as infantry/rangers. We had 'em first...

To go back to Todd's post for a second, is there any evidence that the Army Reserve does allow kilts, and is there an army reserve tartan I don't know about? (not that it matters much, I've been out for years, still a reserve tartan to go with my Army tartan would be cool).

Adam

[thescot]

. . .I can't speak for the other services, but I can't imagine they'd be "up" for letting every unit "roll their own" in uniforming.

Amen, my friend. One thing about the Marines is that they all dress alike.

[Erisianmonkey]

The Air Force Reserve has an official pipe band. You can read more about them here: http://www.band.afrc.af.mil/library/...et.asp?id=3704

Edit to add: Not just a pipe band. There's an Air Force Celtic Rock band as well: http://www.band.afrc.af.mil/library/...et.asp?id=3705

[Piper]

My son is a Marine. My piping instructor gave me a print from a 1994 book from the Company of Military Historians, titled "Military Uniforms in America". It's labeled plate 692, it shows the "USMC Bagpipe, Drum & Bugle Corp, 1943 -1945". The men are wearing Class A uniforms, I believe. No kilts in sight.

[Chef]

There are four official pipe bands in the US Armed services and all wear kilts as part of the special uniform of the band. I know the band at West Point wears the West Point tartan, but I am not sure what tartan the others wear. The others by the way are the Coast Guard, the Air Force Reserve and the Naval Academy bands.

[davedove]

There are four official pipe bands in the US Armed services and all wear kilts as part of the special uniform of the band. I know the band at West Point wears the West Point tartan, but I am not sure what tartan the others wear. The others by the way are the Coast Guard, the Air Force Reserve and the Naval Academy bands.

Even with the special groups, I would bet that when they are not performing that special function, they are still required to wear the standard uniform.