kilt lifters

[Raptor]

It's all a matter of how discreetly it's done. I've had a couple of women lift the back & said nothing. Had others lift the back & had a stern word to them. Once I had a guy go to lift the front & I warned him not to go there. He ignored me & actually did it, running his hand up my leg in the process. Him, I hit. It was not the fact that I'm straight, it was the insult of ignoring a direct request NOT to do it.

[LordKiltClad]

I have never found chafing whilst dancing to be a problem but then again it wasn't my wedding night!

McClef, was made sure something was worn under the kilt so that things weren't worn for later use that night...

[solstice]

I've had a kilt lift attempt only once so far and that was by my girlfriend in the middle of a store, she got a few choice words when we got back to the car and I trust she'll have to common sense to not try it again.
I've gotten The Question before by a couple of mates and used the "socks and boots" response to great effect, needless to say they understood perfectly.
I think that calling the police would be a bit excessive, unless it was a repeat offender, and that the matter could in most cases be handled with a few strong words. If it's just harmless fun then it could be left at that, although if it's for the sake of a laugh at my expense then matters would be dealt with in a manner that would probably leave me with a reputation... It's all completely dependent on the situation...

[auld argonian]

This thread will only go on and on...but...let's think about that "call the police" business. I don't know how it is where you live but we have a saying here in Chicago: When the wagon comes, everybody's going to the station. If you were to get your kilt lifted and somebody who wasn't in on the joke decided that it wasn't funny and that it amounted to public exposure and the cops were called then you'd better be a very charming and fast talker. I figger the odds be 50-50 that the cop will not have a sense of humor or be a kilt wearer himself and that you will either be asked to leave or removed to the Bridewell. Once again, the baser faction of humanity will assume that if you are wearing a kilt then "you are asking for it", it was your intention to have your "differences" aired and treat you accordingly. Thus, STRONGLY discouraging kilt lifters in many sets of circumstances might be the better part of valour, eh?

Best

AA

[AtagahiKC]

I applaud Nervous Jock's post. I agree that calling the police is overkill. It's better to handle it with a joke or even protestation at the kilt check. And I love the idea of the tour sacricifice.

Life is full of risks. Why not find creative ways to deal with the problem? That's why I always liked the one-liners Scots are famous for dishing out to inquisitive persons.

As for the analogy made after my last post, my point was not that the kilt-liftee is to blame, but that to some degree we assume the risk in wearing the kilt. It was from tort law, not criminal law.

But I would like to analyze the analogy a bit. In reading the posts, there is an issue about how men and women are treated under the law and by society.

The difference between lifting a man's kilt and a woman's skirt is in the fear that it causes a woman to have her personal space invaded. For several good reasons, a woman has a right to protection where men are not accorded the same protection.

I think that the public policy behind the difference in treatment is 1) a woman may feel fear for her personal safety from the violation of her modesty and personal space; 2) if it is a man lifts a woman's skirt, it is possible that he will not stop at voyeurism, especially if his inhibitions are reduced by alcohol or drugs; 3) a woman may be physically smaller and less strong than a man to fend off an assault or battery; and 4) a woman has more to lose in a sexual assault than a man does.

A man in a kilt who is exposed is most likely worried about his reputation, modesty and masculinity (and possibly his marriage or relationship). It seems doubtful that any of us are seriously worried about being batteried or raped, unless a gang has us cornered.

Even if a gay man lifts a straight man's kilt, it is not reasonable to presume that the gay man will rape the straight man. This is the gay fear defense used by gay bashers in court.

The defense has some problems here (as well as when used to defend a murder or battery). 1) You may be incorrectly presuming the lifter's sexual orientation. Not all men who lift other men's kilt are gay - they just may be straight men who are curious or have a problem with inappropriate behavior that only they find funny. 2) Just because a man is gay who lifts your kilt, it doesn't mean it is a sexual advance. He might be curious or have a problem with inappropriate behavior that only he finds funny. 3) Even if it is a sexual advance, the nature of it does not warrant violence as the first response.

All of us should know that there is a wide distance between an unwanted sexual advance and sexual assault. If there weren't a difference, how many of us would have been jailed for a sloppy pass at a woman when drunk?

Society expects us to find ways out of the situation without violence. Women have to do it all the time. Surely, men can do the same.

Is it uncomfortable? Sure. Does anyone want to deal with it? No. But we assume the risk when engaging with society that some things that we wish wouldn't happen might occur.

When we go out wearing kilts, it is not an unrestricted license for anyone and everyone to lift our kilts. We like to believe that most of society plays by the rules. But even so, we all know that there are those who will engage in inappropriate behavior.

So plan to have a witty retort at hand, glare at the person or give them a piece of your mind.

If a gay man makes a pass, just laugh and say you aren't interested. You don't need to prove your orientation. Just like straight men (or maybe a higher percentage), 99% of gay men can take a hint.

If you come across the 1% or it is a straight guy provoking you, you can always leave. It isn't fair, I know, but it is better than spending the night in jail because you hit the guy. Besides, I'll bet the women in your life could tell you some stories about how unfair it was that they had to leave to avoid a jerk.

In any case, taking the high road always makes you feel better about yourself. It also makes you look better to those observing the situation.

(Hyper-macho men who like to fight excepted - you might lose their respect. But they won't pay your legal bills even if you did resort to violence. Who needs them if they ain't got your fiscal back?)

[The Supreme Canuck]

No. Just no. I disagree very strongly with the notion that women ought to have some protections that men do not. Equality under the law means equality under the law. No exceptions.

[LordKiltClad]

TSC,
You'll be glad to know that I chose "Why men in kilts aren't protected by the Civil Rights Act" as my topic for a college English paper.

[The Wizard of BC]

If I may relate a story it may help some others understand an "Official" opinion of Kilt lifting.

Setting
A Vancouver BC pub. The evening is getting on and those who have had a few are feeling no pain.

Three gentlemen are standing at the bar conversing amongst themselves when a very attractive lady in her '20's, who obviously has had a few, approaches each man in turn and ask politely, and in what seems a joking manner, if she can lift their kilt and check if "it's" true.
Each man tells the girl NO!
When she makes it to the third man she is getting a little miffed that no one will allow her to look so she starts to laugh and playingly persisting.
She has asked the third man once and his answer was NO!.
She asks a second time and reaches down for his apron. He politely pushes her hand away and says, "Excuse me, I asked you not to do that."
She is now getting angry at the refusals to her coy request so quickly reaches down and lifts the man's apron.

As the lady's hands come up the man reaches behind to his belt and pulls out his handcuffs.

The off-duty officer then calls a squad car. The lady is arrested. She is now a convicted sex offender and must register where ever she lives.

No one, and I mean NO ONE BUT MY WIFE has the right to assault me.

You may be cute. You may be coy. You may even be a former friend.
Anyone attempting to lift a womans skirt Will be arrested for assault. Fact.
If you attempt to lift my kilt I will try my best to see you suffer the same fate.

[oregonscot]

No means no. That has been drilled into men's minds as long as I can remember. Maybe it's time others learned that same lesson.

[Oldhiker]

If it were I who got arrested for public exposure from a kilt lifting incident, surely the judge would let me off for the lack of evidence...

I am still waiting on my first kilt so I have yet to experience this phenom.

Gentlemen don't go around looking up or pulling up women's skirts. The imagination is so much better than reality.