Allowed tartans

[macwilkin]

cajunscot ,
you miss the point of the article .
And that point is , that the Black Watch tartan , is a Grant tartan .

No, I didn't miss your point. In fact, I posted the same link to that article on the US Clan Grant Society's web site several pages back in this thread.

I am quite aware that the Government Sett is also the Hunting tartan of the Clan Grant. If you'll notice, I did say that I would not begrudge the Clan Grant for wearing the Government Sett, especially since my own clan, the Cummings, and the Grants have had a "special relationship" (good and bad) over the years -- a Cumming even served as the Grant Chief's piper, as depicted in the famous painting.

Again, I am certainly not saying the Grants are wrong in wearing Government Sett as their hunting tartan -- far from it. My main purpose was replying to John's little jibe about me "shooting" him over his wearing of the Government Sett. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Regards,

Todd

[Quaich Maker]

No, I didn't miss your point. In fact, I posted the same link to that article on the US Clan Grant Society's web site several pages back in this thread.

I am quite aware that the Government Sett is also the Hunting tartan of the Clan Grant. If you'll notice, I did say that I would not begrudge the Clan Grant for wearing the Government Sett, especially since my own clan, the Cummings, and the Grants have had a "special relationship" (good and bad) over the years -- a Cumming even served as the Grant Chief's piper, as depicted in the famous painting.

Again, I am certainly not saying the Grants are wrong in wearing Government Sett as their hunting tartan -- far from it. My main purpose was replying to John's little jibe about me "shooting" him over his wearing of the Government Sett. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Regards,

Todd

Todd ,
you still miss the point .
That the Black Watch wear the Grant Hunting Tartan .
Not the other way round
That is the position taken by the Grant articles , that you are drawing from .

[macwilkin]

Todd ,
you still miss the point .
That the Black Watch wear the Grant Hunting Tartan .
Not the other way round
That is the position taken by the Grant articles , that you are drawing from .

You might wish to read a couple of articles by our own resident tartan scholar, Matt Newsome:

http://www.albanach.org/blackwatch.htm

and

http://www.albanach.org/tartanname.htm

Happy Reading!

Todd

[Quaich Maker]

You might wish to read a couple of articles by our own resident tartan scholar, Matt Newsome:

http://www.albanach.org/blackwatch.htm

and

http://www.albanach.org/tartanname.htm

Happy Reading!

Todd

Was there a point to you posting those links ?
Saying the same thing twice does not make it correct , especially when it trots out tired old stuff , and shows no sign of recent scholarly research .

(added )

Todd ,

The connection between Cummings the piper , and Grant , was not a clan one , so much as a marriage one

Ian

[macwilkin]

Todd ,

The connection between Cummings the piper , and Grant , was not a clan one , so much as a marriage one

Ian

No, in this case, it would be employment, since William Cumming was piper to the "Laird of Grant".

T.

[Quaich Maker]

No, in this case, it would be employment, since William Cumming was piper to the "Laird of Grant".

T.

Todd ,
do you by chance know anything about William Cumming , Hereditary Piper to the House of Grant ?
You do know that he was born a member of Clan Grant do you not ? As to his belonging to Clan Cummings , who knows ? family name does not necessarily denote clan , as we all know .
If you were to research this William Cumming , you may be surprised .

IanPat Grant

[macwilkin]

Todd ,
do you by chance know anything about William Cumming , Hereditary Piper to the House of Grant ?
You do know that he was born a member of Clan Grant do you not ? As to his belonging to Clan Cummings , who knows ? family name does not necessarily denote clan , as we all know .
If you were to research this William Cumming , you may be surprised .

IanPat Grant

Ian,

Please do not get upset. I am quite aware that William Cumming was the hereditary piper to the Grant Chief. Did you notice my at the end of the post?

This article by Hugh Cheape discusses the painting in more detail:

http://tahoebagpiper.com/piper.pdf

I'd love to see what sources you have, as I would like to write an article about William Cumming for the Clan Cumming Society's newsletter.

Regards,

Todd

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Was there a point to you posting those links ?
Saying the same thing twice does not make it correct , especially when it trots out tired old stuff , and shows no sign of recent scholarly research .

(added )

Todd ,

The connection between Cummings the piper , and Grant , was not a clan one , so much as a marriage one

Ian

Ian,

There are some serious problems in the article on the Clan Grant web site. For one, it states: "The Black Watch sett in the Ancient Colors is known as the Grant Hunting tartan."

The truth is that the Black Watch tartan is the same as the Grant Hunting tartan, period. It makes no difference if the tartan is produced in the ancient colors, modern colors, weathered colors, muted colors, or what have you. All of these color variations in the tartans only came about in the twentieth century. One hundred years ago, no one would have spoken of "modern colors" vs. "ancient colors." It just was not a consideration.

Varying the hues of a tartan does not change what the tartan is. The MacDonald tartan in the "ancient" colors is still the MacDonald tartan. The Grant Hunting tartan in the "modern" colors is still the Grant Hunting tartan. You might want to read my article on tartan colors here:
http://albanach.org/colors.html

However, the article on the Clan Grant site reads as if the Grant Hunting tartan must always be in the ancient colors. Otherwise it is not the Grant Hunting. This is patently false. I know several Grants today who would balk at anyone telling them they are not wearing the Hunting Grant tartan because their kilt is not in the proper shade. And I suppose any Grant who wanted to wear the tartan prior to the introduction of so-called "ancient" colors by the industry post-WWII would just have been out of luck! And what about someone wearing the tartan in the "muted" colors? What is he to think of all this?

(You'll note that beneath that article they show images of tartans, including one labelled "Grant Hunting (Black Watch) - Ancient colors," and a "Grant Hunting (Black Watch) - Modern colors," which correctly illustrates that the tartan retains the same identification regardless of color scheme).

Another major problem with the article is this statement: "it is said that this tartan was originally a Grant tartan before being adopted as the official tartan of the regiment."

Now, it may vert well "be said," but whoever is saying this is wrong. Some Campbells make the exact same claim regarding their use of the Black Watch tartan. It's a classic case of "we had it first."

Now, Todd has already posted a link to my article on the Black Watch tartan but I'll post it again:
http://albanach.org/blackwatch.htm

This is the article that you say trots out "tired old stuff" with "no signs of recent research."

Sir, if you know of any "recent research" that suggests that the Clan Grant was using this tartan as a clan tartan prior to the formation of the Regiment in 1739, I'd dearly love to know. Whomever has done this "research" has managed to keep it quite secret from those of us in the tartan world.

My article was written for The Scottish Banner newspaper, a popular rather than a scholarly periodical. So my apologies if my writing is not "academic" enough for you. However, I can say that my primary source of information for that particular column was The Origins and Development of Military Tartans: A Re-Appraisal, by James D. Scarlett, published in 2003 by Partizan Press, with a forward by Stuart Reid.

Scarlett has studied tartan for over 40 years, and can claim to know about as much as anyone alive on the subject. He's the author of numerous other books on tartan, including The Tartan Weaver's Guide, and Tartan: The Highland Textile.

Scarlett's book in fact represents the most recent research into the subject of military tartans. He is able to make quite a good case that the military tartans were the origins of the clan tartans, and not the other way around. In any case, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Grants, or any other clan, were using a "clan tartan" at all prior to 1739, which would have to be proven if one is to serioulsy suggest that the Black Watch tartan was first used by that clan and only later adopted by the regiment.

Regardless, the thing to be realized today is that the 42nd tartan or "government sett", commonly referred to as the Black Watch tartan, is the exact same tartan as the Clan Campbell tartan, and the Hunting tartans of the Grants and Munros, as well as being the Sutherland district tartan. Color scheme, sett size, and other incidental factors notwithstanding.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.....

[MacWage]

Unless SOMEONE, ANYONE can show me a PORTRAIT or some other PRIMARY source of ANY Campbell in "Black Watch" or similar tartan BEFORE the formation of the regiment, I maintain the following:

The tartan for the Black Watch was CREATED FOR the regiment. It is NOT based on ANY "clan" tartans, esp. as clans HAD NO "CLAN TARTANS" when the Black Watch came into existance.
Also, the OFFICIAL name for THAT tartan is "Govenment Sett" (though 99% of folks call it "Black Watch").
The "Regimental" tartans were usually ADAPTATIONS of Black Watch (note: Gordon, for example, and Forbes).
However, SEVERAL of the clans then adopted the regimental tartans from the regiment bearing its name (note: Campbell and Gordon, as 2 famous regiments AND clans). I contend that these tartans were created FOR the regiments (the "Government sett" based ones were VARIATIONS for REGIMENT IDENTIFICATION purposes), THEN adopted by the clans AFTER THE FACT.

UNLESS someone shows me EVIDENCE in a primary source format, I hold the above.

Now, whether one sees "Black Watch"/Government Sett as appropriate for a "general" tartan we can debate until we are black, blue, and green..
The FACT remains, that the sett is probably the EASIEST to get your hands on and also the most common and popular.
So, appropriateness is really just an academic question at this point.

(Off now)

Now, where is my Blackewatch greatkilt?



(For those who do not know, THAT last statement was a stick at my own preference for "belted plaid" and Cajunscots pet peave of "Blackwatch"/"Black Watch")

The same goes for ANY of the Grant, Menzie, or Sutherland portraits. Show me ONE pre-Black Watch USING that tartan, and everything changes.

[Quaich Maker]

Ian,

There are some serious problems in the article on the Clan Grant web site. For one, it states: "The Black Watch sett in the Ancient Colors is known as the Grant Hunting tartan."

The truth is that the Black Watch tartan is the same as the Grant Hunting tartan, period. It makes no difference if the tartan is produced in the ancient colors, modern colors, weathered colors, muted colors, or what have you. All of these color variations in the tartans only came about in the twentieth century. One hundred years ago, no one would have spoken of "modern colors" vs. "ancient colors." It just was not a consideration.

Varying the hues of a tartan does not change what the tartan is. The MacDonald tartan in the "ancient" colors is still the MacDonald tartan. The Grant Hunting tartan in the "modern" colors is still the Grant Hunting tartan. You might want to read my article on tartan colors here:
http://albanach.org/colors.html

However, the article on the Clan Grant site reads as if the Grant Hunting tartan must always be in the ancient colors. Otherwise it is not the Grant Hunting. This is patently false. I know several Grants today who would balk at anyone telling them they are not wearing the Hunting Grant tartan because their kilt is not in the proper shade. And I suppose any Grant who wanted to wear the tartan prior to the introduction of so-called "ancient" colors by the industry post-WWII would just have been out of luck! And what about someone wearing the tartan in the "muted" colors? What is he to think of all this?

(You'll note that beneath that article they show images of tartans, including one labelled "Grant Hunting (Black Watch) - Ancient colors," and a "Grant Hunting (Black Watch) - Modern colors," which correctly illustrates that the tartan retains the same identification regardless of color scheme).

Another major problem with the article is this statement: "it is said that this tartan was originally a Grant tartan before being adopted as the official tartan of the regiment."

Now, it may vert well "be said," but whoever is saying this is wrong. Some Campbells make the exact same claim regarding their use of the Black Watch tartan. It's a classic case of "we had it first."

Now, Todd has already posted a link to my article on the Black Watch tartan but I'll post it again:
http://albanach.org/blackwatch.htm

This is the article that you say trots out "tired old stuff" with "no signs of recent research."

Sir, if you know of any "recent research" that suggests that the Clan Grant was using this tartan as a clan tartan prior to the formation of the Regiment in 1739, I'd dearly love to know. Whomever has done this "research" has managed to keep it quite secret from those of us in the tartan world.

My article was written for The Scottish Banner newspaper, a popular rather than a scholarly periodical. So my apologies if my writing is not "academic" enough for you. However, I can say that my primary source of information for that particular column was The Origins and Development of Military Tartans: A Re-Appraisal, by James D. Scarlett, published in 2003 by Partizan Press, with a forward by Stuart Reid.

Scarlett has studied tartan for over 40 years, and can claim to know about as much as anyone alive on the subject. He's the author of numerous other books on tartan, including The Tartan Weaver's Guide, and Tartan: The Highland Textile.

Scarlett's book in fact represents the most recent research into the subject of military tartans. He is able to make quite a good case that the military tartans were the origins of the clan tartans, and not the other way around. In any case,
Regardless, the thing to be realized today is that the 42nd tartan or "government sett", commonly referred to as the Black Watch tartan, is the exact same tartan as the Clan Campbell tartan, and the Hunting tartans of the Grants and Munros, as well as being the Sutherland district tartan. Color scheme, sett size, and other incidental factors notwithstanding.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.....

''""there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Grants, or any other clan, were using a "clan tartan" at all prior to 1739, ""

If you , and Scarlett , were to follow the same line of research that I have suggested to Todd , you may have cause to re-consider you position .

Also , there is talk within the clan of a receipt that exists , for a large order specific clan sett tartan , from the late 1600's .
I am given to believe that research is being carried out on that .

Due to the misinformation that has been published about the Clan Grant , in 'coffee table books' , and of late , web sites for commercial tartan sellers and the like , for the past one hundred years or so , our historians can be excused for playing their cards extremely close to their chests.

If you do follow the hint , and research , you will understand why we of Clan Grant do not put much stock in much that has been written about us by outsiders in recent centuries .

I.P.G.