Septs and Associated Families

**Bryan** · 25th August 07, 04:10 PM

I didn't know where to stick this, so I thought the Heraldry Forum would work. My question is, what is the difference between a sept name and a "name associated with" a particular clan? Are all surnames listed under a certain clan entitled to wear that clan's tartan?

The reason I ask is maternally I am Scottish through the surname Butters. Butters is a "name associated" with Clan Murray. I asked a very dear friend of mine who is from Scotland and is coincidentally a Murray, if I could wear the tartan of Murray of Atholl as a sign of my maternal heritage. He said, of course, that I could since my family was associated with his particular clan. I'm still confused though. Why distinguish between associated families and septs? I assume that because a family is ASSOCIATED with that clan in some way, they can wear that clans tartan. Right? Help.

**keltic falcon** · 25th August 07, 06:10 PM

Hi there, yes you can wear the clan murry tartan, asept name is a family name which has married into a clan.

I hope this helps

**Bryan** · 25th August 07, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by keltic falcon

Hi there, yes you can wear the clan murry tartan, asept name is a family name which has married into a clan.

I hope this helps

The problem is, Butters is not a sept of the Clan, just listed as "an associated family." This is all too confusing.

BTW, thanks for the reply.

**sirdaniel1975** · 25th August 07, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Bryan

The problem is, Butters is not a sept of the Clan, just listed as "an associated family." This is all too confusing.

BTW, thanks for the reply.

There are several ways that family names are associated to clans. Some are by location, they paid rent for the land they lived on. Another popular scenario is protection reasons, which is related to the whole location possibility.

Do more research on your name and the Clan Murray, and you might find your answer.

**keltic falcon** · 25th August 07, 06:53 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Murray#Clan_Septs

**Bryan** · 25th August 07, 08:06 PM

Everything I've read just says they are a family associated with the clan, so in my mind, that means there's a connection. Then I found this:

"The Butters or Buttars of Gormack (just east of Dunkeld) in Perthshire and later Pitlochry and Kinnaird (and later also Faskally) in Atholl appear as landowners in the area as early as 1331, when Adam Butir is on record, and in 1360 William Butyr and Patrick Butirr are mentioned as collectors of contributions in Gowrie (Perthshire). Their name apparently refers to the practice of archery, which is performed at the butts, that is, at the target range (the crest of the Butter arms is comprised of two hands holding a drawn bow and arrow). Between 1432 and 1444, Finlay and Patrick Butter served on inquests with other local lairds (landowners) such as Sir David Murray of Tullibardine and Malcolm Drummond of Stobhall, Patrick Rattray of that Ilk, Finlay Ramsay of Bamff and Malcolm Moncreiffe of that Ilk. The Butters were followers of the House of Atholl (see Murray)."

This is pertinent because my family are Butters and I'm trying to make a connection to a clan, this being Murray of Atholl.

**Archangel** · 25th August 07, 09:25 PM

The confusing part is that these titles only compose one part of the clan structure. In Scottish (Celtic) structures bloodlines are not as important as they are in the English (European) social structure.

Basically, if you were really connected to the bloodlines of any of the titled names, you would know it. It's tacky but think Kennel club, the name may be similar but it's not the right one in terms of heraldry.

Thankfully, in the Scottish (Celtic) structure there is another aspect that lets you attach without a clear lineage. So, the reality is that if you wish to identify with this clan, go for it.

Have a good look at the Court of the Lord Lyon. This is the authority for Heraldry in Scotland. The hereditary titles are governed by this office. Notice that the chiefs control the commercial aspects of the tartans, not the general use.

Your sense of courtesy and respect is good. You don't need to have a clear bloodline in Scotland. (Sort of the point of the Harry Potter series, written in Edinburgh.)

**gilmore** · 25th August 07, 10:01 PM

If you want to know which, if any, clan your ancestors were associated with, there really is no substitute for the painstaking work of going back one generation at a time via the paper trail, except maybe Y chromosome DNA testing. The later ocassionally shows connections, but is better used at this point in time to exclude areas of research that would not be useful.

There is much BS in circulation about septs and "families associated with," a lot of it contradictory. Much of it is designed to sell tartan and increase membership in clan associations. Take it all with a grain of salt, especially as it might apply to any one situation, such as one's own family.

**Bryan** · 25th August 07, 10:09 PM

What do you mean by "titled names?"

**Archangel** · 25th August 07, 10:40 PM

When I used the term "titled names", I meant all the names that are listed in Heraldry (armigers, etc). For example, if you were the "McSmith" that is on the coat of arms, or any Heraldic symbol, you would know that. In terms of Heraldry, there is only one McSmith. It's only in the movies that Joe Blow finds out that he is the true Joe Blow McSmith. If you don't know, you're more than likely not the one and none of this applies to you.

It is really is Kennel Club stuff, you can buy a dog "with papers" (do all the geneological research and establish bloodlines). However, only the Kennel Club can determine the legitimacy of those papers. At a certain distance from the main bloodline, those papers are not legitimate. In fact, it is fraud to claim those papers as legitimate. Yet, those businesses keep going the same way puppy mills keep going.

I know I'm really cynical about this kind of stuff but it's only because I appreciate the equality and democracy of the clan structure. Bloodline is only one element of it.

Your original question is one concerning the next level of Heraldry. That is there is no real definition of Sept, or associated families, in Heraldry. There is a basic acknowledgment that if a chief recognizes a family or individual as associate then you're in. However, there's no standard process to formally recognize or establish this. Basically, if you want to be in you're in. If you turn out to be miserable and criminal, the chief will kick you out. Has anybody ever heard of this happening? Didn't think so.

Always, step back and recognize that we are talking about the Scottish (Celtic) structure and not the Kennel Club. It's not like the rest of European (English) social structure. It's that different.