kilt in 1396?!

[Ian.MacAllan]

There seem to be many people in this world who have no idea how to reason logically or how to distinguish between observation and inference. Many of these people simply assert what they want to believe, apparently in the belief that that is what everyone does., This I think is the origin of many of the fantasies about Highland dress, most of which appear to have originated in the 19th and 20th centuries.

As long as one does not take it seriously this is innocent romantic fun.

.

[Macman]

I'd be tempted to say "wrong", not only because this disagrees with every other piece of historical information I've heard, but also because this sounds slightly Romanticized, and that's a sign that things have been...embellished.

I agree. Also, what I've read about the introduction of the bagpipes to Scotland leans towards a time subsequent to the North Inch combat.

[SergeantFirstClass]

Some things to point out. The idea of a kilt then, though not documented is plausible. There is Roman documentatuion of the migrating Celts (Keltoi by the Greeks) wearing a type of tartan material, to include descriptions of this from Ceasar during his exploits in Gaul (as we all know from Gallic, which is Roman for Celt). This is my cited source:

Herm, Gerhard, The Celts: The People Who Came Out of the Darkness. New York, N.Y., St Martin’s Press, 1977.

He used the primary sources of Ceasar, a Roman named Livy and a number of others. Good reading by the way....He only mentioned the Tartan as a cloak though clasped with a brooch.

[Nick the DSM]

umm, oops. i guess i made a mistake, not that i beleived but concerned.

i guess this thread is done, lets eat it!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Some things to point out. The idea of a kilt then, though not documented is plausible. There is Roman documentatuion of the migrating Celts (Keltoi by the Greeks) wearing a type of tartan material, to include descriptions of this from Ceasar during his exploits in Gaul (as we all know from Gallic, which is Roman for Celt). This is my cited source:

Herm, Gerhard, The Celts: The People Who Came Out of the Darkness. New York, N.Y., St Martin’s Press, 1977.

He used the primary sources of Ceasar, a Roman named Livy and a number of others. Good reading by the way....He only mentioned the Tartan as a cloak though clasped with a brooch.

Tartan is a type of pattern woven in cloth. The kilt is a specific type of garment that is usually (though not exclusively) made from tartan cloth. The two are not the same. Julius Ceasar mentioning tartan cloth worn by the Gauls (in modern day France) does allow one to assume anything about the kilt. Tartan has been well documented archaeologically as being produced some 5000 years ago. But that has nothing to do with the kilt, which can only be documented, in any form, to just over 400 years ago. Let's not confuse the two.

[TheKiltedWonder]

Tartan itself is old. In fact, mummies associated with the Tocharians of Western China were found with tartan fabric, which some ue to try and tie them to Europe's Celtic peoples.

[sharpdressedscot]

Some things to point out. The idea of a kilt then, though not documented is plausible. There is Roman documentatuion of the migrating Celts (Keltoi by the Greeks) wearing a type of tartan material, to include descriptions of this from Ceasar during his exploits in Gaul (as we all know from Gallic, which is Roman for Celt). This is my cited source:

Herm, Gerhard, The Celts: The People Who Came Out of the Darkness. New York, N.Y., St Martin’s Press, 1977.

He used the primary sources of Ceasar, a Roman named Livy and a number of others. Good reading by the way....He only mentioned the Tartan as a cloak though clasped with a brooch.

They did find that wee scrap piece of tartan cloth near Hadrian's.
The Celts then were actually known for wearing TROUSERS! Ironic, ain't it?

[SergeantFirstClass]

Tartan is a type of pattern woven in cloth. The kilt is a specific type of garment that is usually (though not exclusively) made from tartan cloth. The two are not the same. Julius Ceasar mentioning tartan cloth worn by the Gauls (in modern day France) does allow one to assume anything about the kilt. Tartan has been well documented archaeologically as being produced some 5000 years ago. But that has nothing to do with the kilt, which can only be documented, in any form, to just over 400 years ago. Let's not confuse the two.

This is why I said plausible. From every account I've found, nothing notes a kilt in the form we currently know it. I'm only throwing additional info out there. If we're looking at only 400 years ago, I wonder what would have lead them to start wearing it or even the idea to create it? By the way, Livy was around the 4th century B.C. when the Celts crossed the Po river and were raiding the Etruscan villages.

[James MacMillan]

I wonder what would have lead them to start wearing it or even the idea to create it?

Anybody that has ever gotten out of a shower and wrapped a towell around them must realize that the kilt isn't really all that complicated! And when made with Velcro, even less so!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

This is why I said plausible. From every account I've found, nothing notes a kilt in the form we currently know it. I'm only throwing additional info out there. If we're looking at only 400 years ago, I wonder what would have lead them to start wearing it or even the idea to create it? By the way, Livy was around the 4th century B.C. when the Celts crossed the Po river and were raiding the Etruscan villages.

I realize you said "plausible" but what I'm saying is that there really is no basis for assuming this at all, so it's really not plausible.

What made them start to wear the kilt around 400 years ago? Most likely a variety of factors. The first form of the kilt was the feilidh-mor, aka the belted plaid (or "great kilt"). This evolved from a large mantle or wrap (an unbleted plaid) that both the Irish and Scottish Gaels shared in common (called a brat in Ireland).

What differetiated the belted plaid from just a simple over-the-shoulder mantle was the fact that it was long enough to be gathered up into folds and belted around the waist. And this was a distinctly Scottish style when it happened.

The first recorded evidence we have of this style of garment comes from an Irish annal dated 1594, the Life of Red Hugh O'Donnell. One section of this document describes a group of Hebridean (Scottish) soldiers, and the writer makes the comment that you could tell the Scottish soldiers from the Irish soldiers by the manner of their clothing. The Scots wore their belts outside their cloaks.

By the time the seventeenth century rolls around, the belted plaid is the dominant style of clothing for Scots Highland men.

Why? Well, I've heard a number of things suggested. One is that Gaelic fashion in the latter part of the sixteenth century was for excess. The leinte (shirts) that they were wearing at the time often had very full, pleated bodies, and super long sleeves that hung down to the knees. It was somewhat of a status symbol to use as much cloth as possible in your clothing. Economically, the cost of wool dropped dramatically towards the end of the sixteenth century, which made it less expensive per yard. Since the plaids/wraps were made from wool, this enabled the masses to purchase more. Once your plaid grows beyond a certain length, it simply facilitates wear to gather up all the excess cloth and belt it into place.

I've heard another theory that northern Europe was experiencing a "little ice age" at this time, as well, which would have led people to dress more warmly, which could have also given rise to the belted plaid.

It is probably a combination of factors, but the point is that all the evidence suggests to this earliest form of kilt originating in Scotland, during the latter part of the sixteenth century. There simply is no evidence to the contrary at this point.

Now, if such evidence were found, that would be another matter. But none of the various claims to an earlier date for the kilt that I've seen floating around on the internet have had any evidence at all to back up those claims. It seems to be just wishfull thinking.

Aye,
Matt