Gorilla or elephant?

[TheKiltedWonder]

I know those expressions the same way you do.

It seems to me that the English language, or at least the American form of it, is steadily declining, rather than evolving. People use more and more words incorrectly. People's vocabularies are steadily shrinking. And, as you pointed out, people forget the meanings and origins of commonly used phrases, and over time, begin to use them incorrectly.

The current form of the language is no more "incorrect" than at any other point in its history. And American English tends to change slower in any ways than British English. Many of the things Brits jokingly point out as "wrong" in American English were perfectly correct 200 years ago in England. As for people forgetting the meanings and origins of phrases and words, it has been my experience that very few people know the actual origins of any phrase or word, but rely on interesting but incorrect folk-etymologies. "Nice" used to mean "silly" and "cretin" originally meant "Christian" (in that "even they are Christian" i.e. human). The list goes on.
That doesn't mean you have to like language change. I personally find it sad when people write the word "till" as "til". "Till" was the original, then "until" was created and both were used and now most people assume that "till" is a shortening of "until" and skip the second "l". But it's a natural process. Language never becomes "broken" and is never in decline; early dictionaries used to rail against "bad usage" and generally cited Shakespeare for it
Language always works just as well even after change, as Chaucer noted in Troilus and Criseyde:

You all know too, that in the nature of language is change
Within a thousand years words then
that had value, now very odd and strange
We find them; and yet they spoke them so
And fared as well in love as men now do.

The bad translation is mine. See his original version to see the "decline" of the English language.

[slohairt]

And here I thought this thread was going to be a silly discussion about who would win: a gorilla vs. an elephant!

(Just for the record, I think the elephant would win.)

As for the steady decline of the English language, here are some chestnuts I always hear:

- double negatives of any kind
- people using "supposably" when they mean supposedly!
- "real" instead of "really"
- "taunt" instead of "taut"

[TheKiltedWonder]

As for the steady decline of the English language, here are some chestnuts I always hear:

- double negatives of any kind

Come now, I just showed we shouldn't think of it as "decline"... Pleeease!
As for double negtives. They've long been part of the English language. They used to be used to strengthen a negative, which is how they are used today. The idea that double negatives make a positive was not introduced until Robert Lowth decided in the late 18th Century that English should follow more mathematical and "logical" rules. Only then did it became ungrammatical. But informal/"uneducated" use of the language has always preserved the traditional negative usage.

[slohairt]

I was thinking more along the lines of:

"Supposably that rope wasn't real taut neither."

Yippy-Yahoo!

[TheKiltedWonder]

I was thinking more along the lines of:

"Supposably that rope wasn't real taut neither."

Yippy-Yahoo!

No that's what I meant. That's the original purpose of double negatives! It's strengthening the fact that the rope isn't taunt
As "country" as it sounds (and I have to admit it sounds a bit uneducated to me too), that's the more correct usage, if history is your guide.

And Makeitstop, I don't agree 100% with what you've said but I do hate it when people say "It's just a matter of semantics!" Just semantics? Just the actual meaning of the word?

[slohairt]

Crap... Thanks for pointing that out! I actually meant to use "taunt."

Oh well, I guess my brain corrected it before I even put to print. (type? screen? cyberspace?)

[slohairt]

Semantics, as everyone knows, is a company that makes software utilities!

There's another wonderful invention of the modern world: Stupid company names which are deliberately spelled incorrectly. I guess it's katchy.

[berserkbishop]

I see that someone is familiar with C.S. Lewis and his Mere Christianity eh Coemgen?

I have to blame a problem with language misuse and a loss of certain "big" words in the general publics' vocabulary partly on the school system. When I was in 8th grade, I read on a college level, and everyone else in the my class at least read on an 8th grade level or they had special education classes. Today I find that most kids in the 8th grade average a 6th grade reading level, many less than that, and no attention is paid to that. Conversely, the math I was doing my senior year in high school was calculus, where as kids in the same school now are taking college level algebra.

Bishop

[Coemgen]

I see that someone is familiar with C.S. Lewis and his Mere Christianity eh Coemgen?

Well, I've been know to read it several times . I'm a HUGE fan of Lewis. I have most of his theological works in print, as well as several in audio format, including a recording of him reading The Four Loves, the only time his voice was ever recorded. Of course, I also have the Chronicles of Narnia and the Space Trilogy. I have yet to get his biography, The Shadowlands, but that is on my wishlist.

I have to blame a problem with language misuse and a loss of certain "big" words in the general publics' vocabulary partly on the school system. When I was in 8th grade, I read on a college level, and everyone else in the my class at least read on an 8th grade level or they had special education classes. Today I find that most kids in the 8th grade average a 6th grade reading level, many less than that, and no attention is paid to that. Conversely, the math I was doing my senior year in high school was calculus, where as kids in the same school now are taking college level algebra.

Bishop

Yeah, I know. I just entered college, and I was astounded that they offered classes in basic algebra and in basic writing. I assumed that there would perhaps be a few remedial classes in those subjects, but that most people would start out with calculus or literature.

Of course, I should have noticed something was up when I realised my high school offered pre-algebra, and that the kids in my freshman English class thought the word "fray" was a "BIG WORD."

Apparently, I was at what would currently be considered college level education in mathematics, history, literature, and grammar when I entered high school. This is attributed to the fact that I was home schooled up to that point, and that my "teachers" (my mom, dad, and my mom's parents) were very well educated and instilled in me a love of learning and reading (my mom had two bachelor's degrees and a master's degree and was a certified teacher, my dad was an engineer in the U. S. Navy for ten years then worked in the Silicon Valley in the 90's, and both my mom's parents were teachers and had master's degrees).

Anyhow, I am loathe to put up with the lack of education, especially in logic, of my peers. This would tend to explain my extreme introversion; well, that and the fact that I have Asperger's syndrome.

But, this is off topic.

And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[bikeolounger]

Hmm...we are taught that the double negative does NOT mean a positive (despite the mathematic implication otherwise), and that double-negatives are grammatically incorrect. Nowhere, however, do we try using a double-positive to imply a negative.






Yeah, right.



I've heard the expression, "elephant under the rug." I have sometimes heard this expression to include that the elephant was hiding under the rug.


I had also heard about elephants in the room, but they were usually pink, and related to the lack of sobriety of the person claiming their presence.