Six or Seven Celtic nations?

[slohairt]

As far as organisations like The Celtic League and most Celtic Studies university programs are concerned, it is language that defines the criteria. Celtic, like Germanic and other European groups is defined as ethno-linguistic. Therefore, regions like Galicia and Asturias are out, as they have no Celtic language to speak of, be it dead or otherwise.

That is not to say that they don't have Celtic heritage, just no Celtic language for the better part of the last millennia. Not enough of it was even recorded to make a reconstruction. It is interesting to note that the French, and possibly the English could make this claim also.

Cornwall and the Isle of Man just slip through the net because of preservation attempts made in the late 19th Century. Cornish did die out as a spoken language of the community in the late 18th or 19th Century, depending on what sources you believe. Regardless of when exactly the Cornish language died in that 100 year span is irrelevant, because it was revived by the efforts of people like Henry Jenner. Today, they are a small number of people who have Cornish as their first language. The Manx language is in somewhat similar situation, though I believe the last truly native speaker died in 1974. The native speakers today are the children of the people who started the revival.

So here you have the list (based on ethno-linguistic criteria):

Ireland (Éire)
Scotland (Alba)
Isle of Man (Ellin Vannin)
Wales (Cymru)
Cornwall (Kernow)
Brittany (Breizh)

[seanboy]

Hello I am a long time observer of xmarks,I am 23 year old scot from glasgow. And I had to enter this discussion regarding the preposterous claims that ireland, scotland etc are celtic.

As far as I am aware the celts are a linguistic and cultural group, most of you I expect will be aware of this.
celtic culture has ceased to be for centuries and centuries only handfuls of people speak scots gaelic and as far as I am concerned playing fiddle music. Drinking guinness and speaking broken phrases of gaelic does not constitute celtic culture.
We in scotland live in a post celtic era (about 1000 years post celtic era), I have had people make ridiculous assumptions about celtic culture such as kilts being celtic dress and such.

I am a scottish nationalist, I am proud of my celtic ancestors and such but I would never describe myself as a celt because I am simply not. The actual term celtic itself is a conjured victorian phrase. The romans never called the celts 'celts' and the scots, irish, welsh etc. never called themselves celtic either.

this silly notion that their are 6 nations in the world that are the last bastions of celtic identity is ridiculous, the saxons didnt even displace the celts as previously thought in england due to dna surveys and reasaearch, we are not more celtic then the germans, french etc.

I read in a previous post that some band honoured america with being the 7th nation because of celtic , I mean what is this about. this implies the celts are a racial group which they are not

anyway nice to meet you and I hope I can debate with anyone not agrreing with my posts, look forward to talking, debating and learning from you all.

[Bugbear]

Welcome from the cactus patch, seanboy
.
seanboy
, I do see your point, but I would also point out that the only world you can know is the one your brain is reconstructing for you to observe. Each of us has a flaud copy of the world in our head. If someone wants to view the world with six celtic nations or what ever, it's not as bad as wanting to enslave some one with your own views. In otherwords, you will only see the world as I tell you you will see it because I know the one true truth. Heard it in college all the time.
[

[slohairt]

Hello I am a long time observer of xmarks,I am 23 year old scot from glasgow. And I had to enter this discussion regarding the preposterous claims that ireland, scotland etc are celtic.

As far as I am aware the celts are a linguistic and cultural group, most of you I expect will be aware of this.
celtic culture has ceased to be for centuries and centuries only handfuls of people speak scots gaelic and as far as I am concerned playing fiddle music. Drinking guinness and speaking broken phrases of gaelic does not constitute celtic culture.
We in scotland live in a post celtic era (about 1000 years post celtic era), I have had people make ridiculous assumptions about celtic culture such as kilts being celtic dress and such.

I am a scottish nationalist, I am proud of my celtic ancestors and such but I would never describe myself as a celt because I am simply not. The actual term celtic itself is a conjured victorian phrase. The romans never called the celts 'celts' and the scots, irish, welsh etc. never called themselves celtic either.

this silly notion that their are 6 nations in the world that are the last bastions of celtic identity is ridiculous, the saxons didnt even displace the celts as previously thought in england due to dna surveys and reasaearch, we are not more celtic then the germans, french etc.

I read in a previous post that some band honoured america with being the 7th nation because of celtic , I mean what is this about. this implies the celts are a racial group which they are not

anyway nice to meet you and I hope I can debate with anyone not agrreing with my posts, look forward to talking, debating and learning from you all.

Dia Dhuit, A Gharsúin Seán!

I don't think the claims that Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, and the Isle of Man are Celtic nations is preposterous. If so, then it is being perpetuated in fine universities throughout the world! It's a bit like saying that Germany is not a Germanic nation.

As I posted before, the Celts are considered an ethno-linguistic grouping. They share a degree of commonality in cultural traditions and their languages are related: Goidelic (Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Manx) and Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton).

The Celts themselves, particularly the Goidelic peoples, readily assimilated and absorbed aspects of other non-related cultures. (Vikings, Anglo-Saxons, etc.) To them being "Celtic" was a cultural badge, not a racial one. DNA study is certainly fascinating, but ultimately means nothing when considering culture. You're correct in stating that the Anglo-Saxons didn't displace the native Britons of the region we now call England. However, they definitely exterminated their culture!

An Irish-speaker of African descent born and bred in the Gaeltacht deserves to be considered a member of the Irish (Celtic) community as much as someone of Irish descent who knows nothing more about Irish culture than shillelaghs and donkeys. (More so, perhaps!) Respectfully, people in the Gaeltacht and the Gaidhealtachd do more than swill Guinness and speak "broken" phrases of Gaelic!

Celtic fiddle playing is Celtic culture, as is wearing a kilt. They were customs developed in a Celtic nation by people of Celtic origin. I should think that would fit anyone's description of culture.

I'm not sure what "post-Celtic" means. Celtic culture did not disappear a thousand years ago. In fact, in the year 1008, Celtic culture was managing quite nicely in its respective areas. The Celtic languages (and their attendant culture) really began their decline a few hundred years ago. Irish, for example, only ceased to be the majority language of the Irish populace in the mid-19th Century! That's no so long ago, really.

As for the term Celtic, it comes from the Latin Celtae which comes from the Greek Keltoi.

[seanboy]

deleted

[seanboy]

Dia Dhuit, A Gharsúin Seán!

The Celts themselves, particularly the Goidelic peoples, readily assimilated and absorbed aspects of other non-related cultures. (Vikings, Anglo-Saxons, etc.) To them being "Celtic" was a cultural badge, not a racial one. DNA study is certainly fascinating, but ultimately means nothing when considering culture. You're correct in stating that the Anglo-Saxons didn't displace the native Britons of the region we now call England. However, they definitely exterminated their culture!

I have lived my whole life in scotland and I have not witnessed at anytime, culture that can be deemed celtic [/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]
An Irish-speaker of African descent born and bred in the Gaeltacht deserves to be considered a member of the Irish (Celtic) community as much as someone of Irish descent who knows nothing more about Irish culture than shillelaghs and donkeys. (More so, perhaps!) Respectfully, people in the Gaeltacht and the Gaidhealtachd do more than swill Guinness and speak "broken" phrases of Gaelic! [/QUOTE]



The differance between the ethnic african and the irish descendant is that the african is irish while the descendant is not he is merely a descendant.

l

[McFarkus]

anyway nice to meet you and I hope I can debate with anyone not agrreing with my posts, look forward to talking, debating and learning from you all.

from Chicago, Illinois, USA

[slohairt]

Items of Celtic culture which can be observed whilst travelling through Scotland:

• Highland Bagpipes & Scottish fiddle playing
• the Scottish Gaelic language
• Scotch Whiskey
• Bealtaine
• Highland Dancing
• Food
• Celtic art (still made today by Celtic artisans, some who are even members of this forum )
• People walking down the street

And last but not least:
Kilts and all of their wonderful accessories.

I understand what you're trying to say: The culture of Scotland today does not resemble the culture found in the past. True enough. Culture does change with time, however. Is the nation of Scotland a Celtic nation? Yes and no. The Scottish people are a hodge-podge of differing origins. For much of the nation's history these divisions were categorised into Highlander and Lowlander. Were/are the Highlanders Celtic? Yes. Though they incorporated elements of Norse, much of their culture was derived from the Irish, and possibly the Picts. Were/are Lowlanders Celtic? Probably not. While some have the "blood" of Strathclyde Britons and Gaelic peoples from that western region which faces Ireland, the bulk of Lowland culture was similar to that of Northern England.

Your analysis of my Irish-speaking African example illustrates a common European confusion of the terms ethnicity and state citizenship. To use an example closer to your home: The Scottish, Welsh, English and Northern Irish nations form the United Kingdom. Therefore, British is a term referring to state citizenship, not ethnicity. An example in my home (Canada), where state citizenship and ethnicity are a little more defined would be this: A Québécois, a Miq'Maq living in Nova Scotia, and myself (an Irish-born Canadian) are all Canadian citizens. Do we share the same ethnicity? Certainly not. Arguably, the "true" Canadian is the Miq'maq. Would I attend his cultural events and claim them as my own because I'm Canadian? No, to do so would be both insulting and disrespectful.

A tangled issue, to be sure! One which is tackled often here.

[seanboy]

the first mention of whisky is from the 15th century though it is likely that it is older than this, There is no evidence that the celts drank whisky.

The celts there is no evidence that the celts took part in highland dancing

the celtic culture was oral as you know so I have no idea where you got celtic food from

Celtic art ill give you that one

People walking down the street it is more than likely that NONE of these people speak gaelic, not to mention typical scottish ethnicity is nordic, germanic, saxon, iberian etc. so ethnically they are as mixed up as ALL europeans. There is nothing that distinguishes them from other countries that were celtic (which was most of europe).

bagpipe tI dont know if the celts played bagpipes I will have to lok it up, I do know they played a large blow horn in an s shape that resembled some kind of mythological serpent.

I have to say that the scots ceased being celtic many, many years ago. I am talking centuries and centuries ago. celtic culture does not exist anymore.

[slohairt]

Indeed, you are correct, seanboy. Whisky/whiskey was first mentioned in the early part of the 15th Century. Most scholars agree, however, that it probably existed for several centuries before that. The name itself is derived from the Gaelic uisce beatha (IRISH) / uisge beatha (SCOTTISH GAELIC). I consider the Irish and the Highland Scots to be Celtic people, therefore I consider whisk(e)y to be a Celtic drink.

I am no expert on Highland Dancing, and I will agree that much of it likely derives from 19th and 20th Century creations. (Much like Irish dancing.) However, it source and terminology leads to Gaelic origin. Gaelic = Celtic.

Celtic culture was not completely oral-based. Before Christianisation, there was the Ogham alphabet. After Christianisation, the Irish language (and therefore by extension, Scottish Gaelic and Manx) became Europe's oldest literary language after Greek and Latin. Much of our knowledge is gleaned from the writings of these monks.

Celtic food is whatever food was traditionally cooked in those regions regarded as Celtic. That's what traditional food is by everyone else's definition. I consider my family's Irish recipes to be Celtic.

Nordic, Germanic, and Saxon are all Germanic. As are Angles and Normans, who likely make up a good portion of the collective Scottish ancestry. The Iberian peninsula was traditionally regarded in Irish/Gaelic mythology as the ancestral homeland of the Goidelic peoples. Celtic = Iberian = Goidelic = Gaelic = Irish/Scottish/Manx. Recent DNA studies are apparently proving this to be true.

Bagpipes are/were common throughout Europe, though I will wager that some of the features of the Great Highland Pipes, Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Uilleann Pipes and some of the music performed is uniquely Gaelic. Gaelic = Celtic. They are many pipers on this forum, I defer to them.

I'll bring it back around to kilts for a moment! To suggest that the kilt (the modern descendant of the belted plaid/feileadh mhòr) is not Celtic dress because the ancient Celts did not wear them, is like claiming that lederhosen are not Germanic because the Visigoths or the Jutes didn't wear them!

People only vanish when their cultures are exterminated and/or assimilated completely. All six Celtic languages still survive (in written form, no less) and aspects of Celtic culture ranging from art, music, and craftsmanship still survive. I will grant that they are in danger of extinction, but they are by no means lost to the mists of time. The fact that we are on this forum discussing it is proof of that. One Celt to another. Or one Gael to another if you prefer.