Six or Seven Celtic nations?

[Bugbear]

Thank you for those book suggestions, The Wizard of BC. I have seen some interesting things in relation to the tracking of mitocondreal DNA and one of the cultures I grew up in and it is slowly changing world views in that culture.
Hegel's The Philosophy of History is the book I was trying to remember and it was very difficult to understand, so I'm thinking of the help that I recieved from teachers and so on in understanding the book as far as the gist being that history is a spirit trying to be born. It's not a quote from the book as far as I can remember.

[gilmore]

For more information may I suggest you check out "The Genographic Project" sponsored by The National Geographic Society and IBM. Bobbie and I got each other DNA sampling kilts for Christmas and her family line is already plotted. Mine should be finished in a week or two.

The Genographic Project isn't designed or intended to tell one about one's family history. It shows human migration patterns, mostly prehistoric, and in very broad, vague and general terms. They test only 12 markers, a very small number. It won't tell you others whom you match with, and you can't upgrade to test more markers.

If you want DNA testing that is meaning for genealogy, for tracing one's own patrilineal or matrilineal lines, the best place to test is Family Tree DNA at www.ftdna.com. Theirs is the largest database, and their FAQ does a good job of explaining what Y DNA and mtDNA can and cannot show you.

[The Wizard of BC]

The Family Tree DNA company is the same one that provides the test for the Genographic Project.

I was not trying to say that I was attempting to trace my family tree using the Genographic Project. You are correct that that is not what it is all about. It is a broad project focusing on Human Migration Routes and that is what I wanted to do.

[Bugbear]

Sorry, The Wizard of BC
, hope your painting goes well.

Also, sorry about the miscomunications and goof ups on the history stuff. Hope I didn't get too far out on a limb back there in my other posts. It was fun to talk about that stuff though. Peace and chicken grease...

[The Wizard of BC]

Ya know, before opening my big mouth I was having a good time painting my shop walls. I think I'm going to go check, I may have missed a spot.

[slohairt]

Hello I am a long time observer of xmarks,I am 23 year old scot from glasgow. And I had to enter this discussion regarding the preposterous claims that ireland, scotland etc are celtic.

As far as I am aware the celts are a linguistic and cultural group, most of you I expect will be aware of this.
celtic culture has ceased to be for centuries and centuries only handfuls of people speak scots gaelic and as far as I am concerned playing fiddle music. Drinking guinness and speaking broken phrases of gaelic does not constitute celtic culture.
We in scotland live in a post celtic era (about 1000 years post celtic era), I have had people make ridiculous assumptions about celtic culture such as kilts being celtic dress and such.

I am a scottish nationalist, I am proud of my celtic ancestors and such but I would never describe myself as a celt because I am simply not. The actual term celtic itself is a conjured victorian phrase. The romans never called the celts 'celts' and the scots, irish, welsh etc. never called themselves celtic either.

this silly notion that their are 6 nations in the world that are the last bastions of celtic identity is ridiculous, the saxons didnt even displace the celts as previously thought in england due to dna surveys and reasaearch, we are not more celtic then the germans, french etc.

I read in a previous post that some band honoured america with being the 7th nation because of celtic , I mean what is this about. this implies the celts are a racial group which they are not

anyway nice to meet you and I hope I can debate with anyone not agrreing with my posts, look forward to talking, debating and learning from you all.

Dia Dhuit, A Gharsúin Seán!

I don't think the claims that Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, and the Isle of Man are Celtic nations is preposterous. If so, then it is being perpetuated in fine universities throughout the world! It's a bit like saying that Germany is not a Germanic nation.

As I posted before, the Celts are considered an ethno-linguistic grouping. They share a degree of commonality in cultural traditions and their languages are related: Goidelic (Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Manx) and Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton).

The Celts themselves, particularly the Goidelic peoples, readily assimilated and absorbed aspects of other non-related cultures. (Vikings, Anglo-Saxons, etc.) To them being "Celtic" was a cultural badge, not a racial one. DNA study is certainly fascinating, but ultimately means nothing when considering culture. You're correct in stating that the Anglo-Saxons didn't displace the native Britons of the region we now call England. However, they definitely exterminated their culture!

An Irish-speaker of African descent born and bred in the Gaeltacht deserves to be considered a member of the Irish (Celtic) community as much as someone of Irish descent who knows nothing more about Irish culture than shillelaghs and donkeys. (More so, perhaps!) Respectfully, people in the Gaeltacht and the Gaidhealtachd do more than swill Guinness and speak "broken" phrases of Gaelic!

Celtic fiddle playing is Celtic culture, as is wearing a kilt. They were customs developed in a Celtic nation by people of Celtic origin. I should think that would fit anyone's description of culture.

I'm not sure what "post-Celtic" means. Celtic culture did not disappear a thousand years ago. In fact, in the year 1008, Celtic culture was managing quite nicely in its respective areas. The Celtic languages (and their attendant culture) really began their decline a few hundred years ago. Irish, for example, only ceased to be the majority language of the Irish populace in the mid-19th Century! That's no so long ago, really.

As for the term Celtic, it comes from the Latin Celtae which comes from the Greek Keltoi.

[seanboy]

deleted

[seanboy]

Dia Dhuit, A Gharsúin Seán!

The Celts themselves, particularly the Goidelic peoples, readily assimilated and absorbed aspects of other non-related cultures. (Vikings, Anglo-Saxons, etc.) To them being "Celtic" was a cultural badge, not a racial one. DNA study is certainly fascinating, but ultimately means nothing when considering culture. You're correct in stating that the Anglo-Saxons didn't displace the native Britons of the region we now call England. However, they definitely exterminated their culture!

I have lived my whole life in scotland and I have not witnessed at anytime, culture that can be deemed celtic [/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]
An Irish-speaker of African descent born and bred in the Gaeltacht deserves to be considered a member of the Irish (Celtic) community as much as someone of Irish descent who knows nothing more about Irish culture than shillelaghs and donkeys. (More so, perhaps!) Respectfully, people in the Gaeltacht and the Gaidhealtachd do more than swill Guinness and speak "broken" phrases of Gaelic! [/QUOTE]



The differance between the ethnic african and the irish descendant is that the african is irish while the descendant is not he is merely a descendant.

l

[McFarkus]

anyway nice to meet you and I hope I can debate with anyone not agrreing with my posts, look forward to talking, debating and learning from you all.

from Chicago, Illinois, USA

[slohairt]

Items of Celtic culture which can be observed whilst travelling through Scotland:

• Highland Bagpipes & Scottish fiddle playing
• the Scottish Gaelic language
• Scotch Whiskey
• Bealtaine
• Highland Dancing
• Food
• Celtic art (still made today by Celtic artisans, some who are even members of this forum )
• People walking down the street

And last but not least:
Kilts and all of their wonderful accessories.

I understand what you're trying to say: The culture of Scotland today does not resemble the culture found in the past. True enough. Culture does change with time, however. Is the nation of Scotland a Celtic nation? Yes and no. The Scottish people are a hodge-podge of differing origins. For much of the nation's history these divisions were categorised into Highlander and Lowlander. Were/are the Highlanders Celtic? Yes. Though they incorporated elements of Norse, much of their culture was derived from the Irish, and possibly the Picts. Were/are Lowlanders Celtic? Probably not. While some have the "blood" of Strathclyde Britons and Gaelic peoples from that western region which faces Ireland, the bulk of Lowland culture was similar to that of Northern England.

Your analysis of my Irish-speaking African example illustrates a common European confusion of the terms ethnicity and state citizenship. To use an example closer to your home: The Scottish, Welsh, English and Northern Irish nations form the United Kingdom. Therefore, British is a term referring to state citizenship, not ethnicity. An example in my home (Canada), where state citizenship and ethnicity are a little more defined would be this: A Québécois, a Miq'Maq living in Nova Scotia, and myself (an Irish-born Canadian) are all Canadian citizens. Do we share the same ethnicity? Certainly not. Arguably, the "true" Canadian is the Miq'maq. Would I attend his cultural events and claim them as my own because I'm Canadian? No, to do so would be both insulting and disrespectful.

A tangled issue, to be sure! One which is tackled often here.