Cornish kilts

[Bryan]

Is there any truth to the Cornish people having worn kilts in the past? I've read a few things about it, but nothing definitive. Some say the traditional Cornish kilt was black. There is some evidence that they did from a carving on a church bench from the 16th century. Anyone have any thoughts?

[Bugbear]

Here's a link:
http://www.albanach.org/kilt.html
And thank you, cajunscot. I had hoped Matthew Newsome's articals would kind of dispel the sixteenth century stuff and so on, but you've set things on the right track.

[macwilkin]

Is there any truth to the Cornish people having worn kilts in the past? I've read a few things about it, but nothing definitive. Some say the traditional Cornish kilt was black. There is some evidence that they did from a carving on a church bench from the 16th century. Anyone have any thoughts?

More likely the Cornish adopted the kilt & tartan as an expression of their revived nationalism in the 1960's. The Cornish national tartan, for example, was designed in 1963. The Cornish Hunting Tartan and the Cornish flag tartan were designed in the 1980s, if memory serves me.

The reference to a plain black kilt being used by Cornish patriots can be found in Teall & Smith's District Tartans, p. 138, but there is no mention of a date, let a lone a claim of a 16th century origin.

I would take any claim of such ancient pedigree with a large dose of salts.

Regards,

Todd

[Bryan]

That's kind of what I figured.

[Rab Gordon]

You could ask Helen at Cornovi who specialise in Cornish Kilts,

Rab

[macwilkin]

Just for fun, I googled "Cornish Tartans", and a wikipedia article came up, which also made the claim about a 16th century origin; the article cited was this one:

http://www.sackpfeifen.de/diy/kerts01.htm

I wonder if this could be the origin of the claim that the Cornish were wearing kilts in the 16th century?

And another claim:

The tartan custom seems to have persisted among the Keltic weavers to at least the time of the Norman conquest. Still token of Cornwall's checkered career are the several ancient bench-ends in her churches, engraves as they are with kilted figures - one playing the bagpipes!

In that same article there is also this snippet:

In 1903 the Cornish delegate to the Celtic Congress, convening at Caernarvon, was L.C. Duncombe-Jewell, who paraded before the assembly in a wode-blue kilt*, to impress upon it the Keltic character of Kernow. In 1963, just sixty years later, when the Celtic Congress met at St Ives, the Keltic audience witnessed the author of this treatise parading on the stage, displaying the prototype of the Cornish national tartan, in the traditional colours of Kernow, attached to the apron of his own Clan Douglas kilt!*

*emphasis mine.

Notice the dates -- 1903 & 1963. The 1903 date corresponds to roughly the same time that Irish Nationalist Patrick Pearse was trying to introduce the kilt as an alternative to Saxon trousers. We've seen the 1963 date already with the adoption of the Cornish national tartan.

A lot of speculation going on here, in my opinion. Very similar to the claim that the ancient Irish wore kilts that Matt addresses in these articles:

http://albanach.org/kilt.html

http://albanach.org/leine.html

Regards,

Todd

[McClef]

On my recent visit to Cornwall I was amazed how many locals recognised my Cornish tartan so it's there in the conciousness, however recent.

So far it's the only one I have a plaid for too!

[TheKiltedWonder]

The German page doesn't really concern kilts, but rather bagpipes.
I believe that the pictures on this page are the ones referenced by the rootsweb person. The writer never mentions a kilt. His focus is solely on the bagpipes. He wanted to take pictures of the pews in order to be able to measure the dimensions of the bagpipes for when he made his own.
Here are more pictures of the pews. They were carved between 1510 and 1530 by Robert Daye, but some have been destroyed by souviner hunters, according the website:
http://www.sackpfeifen.de/diy/alternun.htm

It seems that once again, any knee length piece of clothing is being assumed to be a kilt. And the assumption is not made in the article

[macwilkin]

The German page doesn't really concern kilts, but rather bagpipes.
I believe that the pictures on this page are the ones referenced by the rootsweb person. The writer never mentions a kilt. His focus is solely on the bagpipes. He wanted to take pictures of the pews in order to be able to measure the dimensions of the bagpipes for when he made his own.
Here are more pictures of the pews. They were carved between 1510 and 1530 by Robert Daye, but some have been destroyed by souviner hunters, according the website:
http://www.sackpfeifen.de/diy/alternun.htm

It seems that once again, any knee length piece of clothing is being assumed to be a kilt. And the assumption is not made in the article

Ah, but the original claim was:

"There is some evidence that they did from a carving on a church bench from the 16th century."

And, you yourself said the article deals with church pews from 1510-1530. So while the article may not address it, this may be the source of the aforementioned speculation. The original post never mentioned who made the original claim; someone could have seen these carvings and made the assumption that the Cornish wore kilts in the 1500's.

The web page also says:

"Eine sogenannte "Double Pipe" nach einem Kirchenbankrelief in St. Alternun Church im Bodmin Moor / Cornwall / England." (Emphasis mine)

So, I wouldn't assume that just because the article doesn't mention kilts that this is not the source of said legend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_tartans

Not that I'm endorsing Wikipedia or anything. :mrgreen: The article does cite this web site as its source, though, which was my point.

T.

[TheKiltedWonder]

Oh sorry, I wasn't trying to say it wasn't the source of the legend. I was trying to establish that the original writer did not do any clothing analysis on the church benches and so he didn't create the legend. That's what I meant when I said it was another case of someone seeing a knee length garment and assuming it was a kilt.

I figure that someone sees the page and sees an old date, Cornwall and figures with something hanging down to about the knee and takes the pews out of context and viola!
I agree whole-heartedly with your interpretation.