Who Was Prince Charlie Anyway?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

That's a lovely fantasy but unlikely to be most peoples reality in today's world. Unlike the fictional Mr. Steed of Avengers fame, I doubt most people could justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing. I am afraid your vision can only be shared by an economic elite. Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted.

Best regards,

Jake

Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.

To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."

I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.

At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.

So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.

You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.

With 100% of my best regards,
Scott

[ccga3359]

Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.

To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."

I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.

At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.

So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.

You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.

With 100% of my best regards,
Scott

I agree whole heartedly! Now where can I get a quality rubber chicken?

[Zardoz]

Those are some great paintings, but you'll notice none of the subjects are wearing anything like a Prince Charlie coatee....
Like the original poster, I'm really interested in when that style of jacket became popular as formal highland dress, I've been digging around on the 'net since this thread started, and have not found any useful info.

[Monkey@Arms]

Jake, if permitted the addition of one word, I would tend to agree with about 99.5% of your post.

To be in accord with your comments I'd add the word willing. As in "I doubt most people would be willing to justify the cost of owning an umbrella made by a British craftsperson, let alone bespoke clothing."

I chose the word "willing" because it implies that someone might have to be willing to give up something to have something nice. Now I don't know what someone would have to be willing to sacrifice to own a top quality day wear kilt jacket with matching waistcoat-- certainly not their 60-inch TV, but maybe a couple of bottles of $60 scotch.

At this point I was going to make some comment about removing the phrase "economic elite", but on reflection I think you are right. Oscar Wilde hit it right on the nose when he said "Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I think recognizing value defines the economic elite down to a tee. You don't have to be rich, but you have to be discerning and, sometimes, willing sacrifice is the price you pay for your discernment.

So it looks as if we are in complete agreement, except for the other part of that 0.5% I mentioned earlier.

You said, "Men's fashions change, both in matters kilted and nonkilted." To which I could only reply that quality never goes out of fashion.

With 100% of my best regards,
Scott

Scott, very well put. And believe me I would love nothing better to be the proud owner of said umbrella, (and truth be told to be John Steed)

Best regards,

Jake

[Phil]

In the 1950's if you wore highland dress your wore a tweed jacket and waistcoat during the day and, in the evening, a Montrose of Military double breasted doublet made of velvet. Long-haired sporans had pretty well disappeared apart from a few aristocratic families who tend to pass these things down from father to son. In fact Stewart Christie mentioned by MacMillan of Rathdown managed to survive by altering their clothing for this purpose and are still going strong. By the 1960's people were far more interested in the youth fashions of the day and virtually no-one wore highland dress apart from the dancing and Mod fraternity, everyone else went CASUAL - bell bottom pants and mini-skirts. After Margaret Thatcher managed to alienate 99% of the Scottish population in the 1980's kilt wearing suddenly became a statement of identity again and by the 1990's was the uniform of choice for every international rugby and football match and also for weddings and other formal events. The hire companies responded to this new demand by supplying "one size fits all" garments such as kilts with 3 straps which could accommodate a variety of shapes and because the Prince Charlie didn't button up it could stretch across a range of waistlines and became the standard outfit. In fact it became much like Henry Ford's dictum "Any colour you like as long as it's black" with the result that (almost) everyone nowadays regards highland dress as this pastiche created by the kilt-rental trade of Prince Charlie with white hose and ghillie brogues. What the pictures posted earlier demonstrate, though, is that the only dress rules in Victorian times were that there weren't any. If you got an invite to a royal knees-up then the Lord Chamberlain had a set of rules telling you exactly what you could wear, otherwise high society types knew exactly what to wear and proles like us just didn't get invited, couldn't afford the fancy dress, and had a great time getting drunk at ceilidhs.

[Clockwork John]

I'd love to see some photos of kilted Mods...

[Phil]

I'd love to see some photos of kilted Mods...

Not the same kind of Mods - in this context an annual get together for Gaelic speakers celebrating their language and traditions. The National Mod it is called and regularly attracts competitors from Canada.

[Farlander]

In the 1950's if you wore highland dress your wore a tweed jacket and waistcoat during the day and, in the evening, a Montrose of Military double breasted doublet made of velvet...

Thank Phil, this does a nice job of answering many of my questions!

[beloitpiper]

If you got an invite to a royal knees-up then the Lord Chamberlain had a set of rules telling you exactly what you could wear, otherwise high society types knew exactly what to wear and proles like us just didn't get invited, couldn't afford the fancy dress, and had a great time getting drunk at ceilidhs.

Hahah, my family was definitely the latter!...still is, actually.

[Clockwork John]

My family too.