Hand Tailored

[Chef]

Nick, I'm very sorry but I'm not buying this at all. It sounds like a sales pitch to me. If it's not then I am completely missing your point. I agree with what MacMillan said about why hand stitching is preferable to machine stitching but the idea that machine stitching would be preferred over hand stitching is IMHO sounds like rubbish.

If you are talking about an inferior hand stitched kilt or if price is a deciding factor I can understand why a machine stitched kilt is preferred. Without either of those factors I think the likelihood that someone would prefer a machine stitched kilt to say a Barb Tewksbury or or other true craftsman's wares is silly. I just don't see it happening.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a machine stitched kilt; I have seen fine ones. I just don't see it being preferred over a true hand stitched one.

What am I missing?

[The Wizard of BC]

Nick, I now think I know what you were talking about. My problem with trying to understand comes from the example of hand-stitched kilts I own, have seen and made.

I regard a hand-stitched kilt to be far superior in aesthetics because I was taught the the stitches should be completely invisible. This was the beauty of them. There are no lines of stitching for anyone to complain about.

To me the less pleasing aesthetic is a machine-sewn kilt where each and every line of stitching is visible and in some cases distracting to the Tartan.

My Tewksbury appears to be a single piece of fabric across the entire Fell area. This is my example and goal I strive to with every hand-sewn I have done. There are also no stitches visible anywhere else on the kilt with the one exception of the stitches of the leather straps.

I guess I can understand that some people would prefer to see multiple lines of machine stitching on their kilts. The stitching on my Contemporary Kilts is done with a machine and is visible. In fact we have done kilts with contrasting stitching to enhance the effect.

My Traditional Kilts all have not one visible stitch. This is to me what a Traditional should look like. But I'm not the kilt cops and others sense of aesthetics is not my worry.

[Rex_Tremende]

Indeed, whilst Rex (above) says he doesn't understand the attraction of the more uneven product (if I understand him correctly).

Eh, what do I know? I only had a quick look at the one crappy kilt to go on.

Sort of related to this topic, I brought a second-hand kilt I had purchased to my tailor to have the buckles moved back for a better fit. Now, this guy's shop is one of the better ones in town, and they do beautiful bespoke suits (not that I ever splurged on one). But when I got the kilt back, it looked like a child had attached the buckles back on. When I pointed it out, the owner took it to his seamstress in the back room, and there eminated several high-pitched protestations.

The proprietor returned and said that the original work had been done by industrial machine, and it could not be replicated owing to the bulk of the fabric. Now, having closely inspected the thing before I sent it off, I know good and well that the original work was done by hand and that a more skilled (or patient) seamstress could have done a better job.

In the end I decided I wanted the kilt back more than I needed to have every stitch perfected and invisible. The straps would cover up the mess, anyway. But it just goes to show the difference between the masters and the novices.

Regards,
Rex.

[Nick Fiddes]

Nick, I'm very sorry but I'm buying this at all. It sounds like a sales pitch to me. If it's not then I am completely missing your point. I agree with what MacMillan said about why hand stitching is preferable to machine stitching but the idea that machine stitching would be preferred over hand stitching is IMHO sounds like rubbish. <snip>
What am I missing?

Well, it's not a sales pitch, because as I said earlier we offer either as an option with most of our kilts. It's clear from what you say that you prefer the hand-stitched aesthetic, which is absolutely fine of course. But whether you choose to believe it or not, I'll try not to be offended by your calling me silly and simply respond with the facts. I can assure you there are plenty of proud kilt wearers who see it differently. I'm not talking about crude factory-made products where machining is the cheapest way to knock out mass-market rubbish fast. I'm talking about using a sewing machine appropriately, like any other tool in a craft workers toolbox, to produce seams that have a different result which plenty of people actively prefer. Perhaps if I used the analogy of woollens you might find this principle easier to accept? We offer a fabulous range of hand-knitted arran sweaters that look just like your granny knitted. We also offer fine cashmeres, produced on machines with fine tolerances to exacting standards. One looks most rustic and natural, the other more executive perhaps. Horses for courses. As I say, it's a matter of taste, and I entirely respect your preference. But other people's preferences aren't always be the same.

[Chef]

I didn't mean to offend, as I said what am I missing? I understand your analogy (I assumed that is what you meant) but I don't agree. I have never seen a machine made kilt where the seams were as well done as a hand-sewn made by a true journeyman kiltmaker, but I am willing to be converted.

Can you perhaps show pictures of what you are referring to?

[Nick Fiddes]

I'll do better than pictures. But please bear with me as it may take a wee while. I have something in development that will speak louder than words, and I'll post it here when it's ready. (Sorry to be mysterious but experience says it's best.)

And not agreeing is fine. In fact, the very point of my posting (which I submitted knowing that it went against the grain, but might therefore be interesting and helpful) was to say that not everyone agrees about this. So sorry if I seem thin-skinned. I know a lot of people regard such phrasing as normal knockabout. But I generally find debates more productive when issue-based rather than parties knocking chunks out of another personally. I don't feel my views are "rubbish" or "silly", but are considered and based on personal and professional experience. Please do continue to dispute them. But if you wish me to defend them, let's do so on the basis of facts?

[Chef]

Nick, first no offence was meant. I stated that maybe I was missing something. Second you admit yourself that the idea you put forward is contentious. You no doubt have more experience selling kilts than I do, however you are stating something that for the majority would be the first time they have heard such a claim. I have probably met and discussed kilts with well over a thousand people in my life and I have never heard anyone say they preferred a machine sewn kilt over a hand sewn one unless there was a mitigating factor such as cost or the fact that they preferred a contemporary style etc.

I'm sure you have dealt with more customers than that but I think I have had a decent enough sample to base my opinion on. However I am willing to learn, but until I see something that demonstrates what you mean it still sounds like a sales pitch...sorry.

[Nick Fiddes]

Chef, please explain why you accuse me (again) of making a sales pitch when, as I have already said, we offer both fully hand-sewn and part-machined-part-hand-sewn kilts to customers, leaving the choice to the purchaser which they prefer. The only 'kilts' we *don't* sell are the fully-machined cheaper rubbish sold widely on the high street. I simply don't understand the logical basis of your accusation.

[Chef]

Chef, please explain why you accuse me (again) of making a sales pitch when, as I have already said, we offer both fully hand-sewn and part-machined-part-hand-sewn kilts to customers, leaving the choice to the purchaser which they prefer. The only 'kilts' we *don't* sell are the fully-machined cheaper rubbish sold widely on the high street. I simply don't understand the logical basis of your accusation.

I'm not accusing you of anything; I said what you are saying sounds like a sales pitch, but that I am interested in learning more. Until then I am unconvinced.

Why do I think it sounds like a sales pitch? There are a few reasons. First and formost is that it is an assertion I have never heard before. I have worn kilts for 40+ years and I have been asking questions of the makers about them for at least 30. In all that time you are the first person to tell me that a buyer would choose a kilt with machine stitching over a completely hand-sewn one for a reason other than price. Second, yes you do offer both fully hand sewn and "hand-made" (which includes machine stitching) on your site. However it seems fairly clear that the "hand-made" models are a much larger piece of the business than the much more expensive fully hand-sewn kilts are. The fact that you would promote you money making product makes perfect sense.

You do offer fully hand-sewn kilts as well as "hand-made" kilts. You offer fully hand-sewn as an additional option on your Balmoral but I would hardly say you were going out of your way to upsell. In fact, I would say you were rather dismissive of fully hand-stitched kilts from this quote:

From KiltStore.net
Your kilt combines hand-stitching and machine stitching for the best possible results, though if you prefer the slight uneven character full hand-stitching is available as an option

What I read here is that full hand-stitching will give you less than the best possible results. You also do not list this option on the all your "hand-made" kilts.

Again, I have seen some very nice kilts that use your "hand-made" method, but the reason people say they bought them has always been the price, which is perfectly fine. However, no one has ever told me they bought their machine stitched kilt because they liked it better than a fully hand-sewn.

So yes, I remain skeptical about your assertions until I see what you are talking about and until then it sounds like a sales pitch to me.

[Nick Fiddes]

I of course acknowledge that full hand-stitching is generally regarded amongst kilt connoisseurs as the more prestigious. And indeed on a personal level that is on balance what I might generally choose myself. But this does not undermine the validity of the point I was trying to make, about comparing apples and pears, which I intended as a constructive and interesting contribution to the debate. I'm not going to repeat why I regard them as different more than necessarily better or worse, as I feel I've done so above and there's nothing I can say now that could deflect your opinion. (And if we don't offer hand-stitching as an option on all our traditional 8 yarders apart from the 'top value' line, that's a web site error and I'd be grateful if you could point out the examples where not, as we should be and I'd get this corrected.)

My comments about the 'slightly uneven' character of hand-stitching were in my view not at all dismissive. I went out of my way thereafter to clarify exactly what I meant by this, which was to highlight the technical diffferences and their inevitable aesthetic results. This clearly differs from your perceptions. But it saddens me immensely that you continue to seek to make your point on the basis of personal attacks whose logic or substance I simply cannot see. As you yourself remark, I was not going out of my way to 'upsell' our 100% hand-stitched offerings, which as I see it could have been when your throwing the 'sales pitch' mud might have stuck.

I was going out of my way to give an honest and forthright personal opinion based on my own experience. In all your years of wisdom no one has ever dissented to your face from your viewpoint. I accept this. (Though has it occurred to you that some of these other kiltmakers may have in effect been giving you the sales pitch, in simply affirming your evidently strongly-held views rather than lose you as a potential customer by dissenting?) But I am telling you frankly that in *my* experience, we have heard this alternative viewpoint on many occasions. It seems you cannot tolerate this possibility, so in your conceptual universe I *must* be a liar, with an ulterior motive.

I have to be honest and tell you that I feel deeply upset, hurt, and insulted by your comments, which I feel to be a cheap shot and unworthy of someone of your standing. Despite my pleas to debate on the basis of facts (and therefore to allow me to participate in this discussion on a level playing field) it seems to me that you have been doing what in sporting parlance we call 'playing the man instead of the ball' - which in most sports is regarded as a foul, and it certainly feels so to me. As you must be aware, I have no way to defend myself against such attacks, which I guess you feel win you debating points, regardless of the truth of the matter in discussion. Mud sticks. But personally I find this a low approach, and I find it unfortunate that you use your status here in such a way. (And I have to wonder whether you do so against US-based kiltmakers similarly?)

Mostly on this forum I have confined myself to participating in discussions where my firm was already directly mentioned. This is partly due to busy-ness, but also because I have always feared that cynics would read self-interest into whatever I said, regardless of its merits. On this occasion I felt I had something worthwhile to add, so for once I thought I'd pipe in. Well, thanks, but you have very successfully substantiated my fears, so that's something I shall certainly think twice or thrice about before contributing in the future. You are saving this board for more uncontroversial approbation and validation of your existing views, and absence of independent voices, you perhaps prefer. But it's an unhappy day for me.