MacMillan modern black tartan

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The same thing has more or less happened with the newer Dress Mackay tartan:
http://www.clanmackayusa.org/NewTartan/NewTartan.htm
it was designed by the US branch of the Mackay clan, who have attempted to get our Chief, the Lord Reay, to recognize it but have yet to get any response from him, so it was registered with the STA as an unofficial and a corporate tartan of the Clan Mackay Society, USA.

I don't get the whole idea of individuals (either corporate or sole) thinking they can invent "new" clan tartans without first asking for the chief's approval.

Is this strictly a USA thing? I mean I don't blame Reay one bit for not responding. How do you politely respond to the affront of being told "We don't like your family tartans all that much, so we've designed a new one. Now approve it." I think Reay deserves a medal for forbearance.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me in the matter of ignoring one's Chief when deciding to "create" clan traditions-- like tartans. I just don't get it.

[ChattanCat]

I don't get the whole idea of individuals (either corporate or sole) thinking they can invent "new" clan tartans without first asking for the chief's approval.

Is this strictly a USA thing? I mean I don't blame Reay one bit for not responding. How do you politely respond to the affront of being told "We don't like your family tartans all that much, so we've designed a new one. Now approve it." I think Reay deserves a medal for forbearance.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me in the matter of ignoring one's Chief when deciding to "create" clan traditions-- like tartans. I just don't get it.

I don't see where the chef wasn't consulted. They did not get a response so they registered it. Anyone can register a tartan... Is it because it has the clan name in the title?

[James MacMillan]

I don't get the whole idea of individuals (either corporate or sole) thinking they can invent "new" clan tartans without first asking for the chief's approval.

Is this strictly a USA thing? I mean I don't blame Reay one bit for not responding. How do you politely respond to the affront of being told "We don't like your family tartans all that much, so we've designed a new one. Now approve it." I think Reay deserves a medal for forbearance.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me in the matter of ignoring one's Chief when deciding to "create" clan traditions-- like tartans. I just don't get it.

I equally don't "get" your reluctance to accept new tartans. The Clan Mackay Society, USA appears to have tried to do things in the proper way, and when met with no response, registered the tartan as their own. Why is that wrong?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I don't see where the chef wasn't consulted.

As I understand it, Lord Reay was asked to approve the tartan after it was designed and registered, and not before.

They did not get a response so they registered it. Anyone can register a tartan...

It is incredibly "bad form" to do something without first securing permission, especially when the perpetrators profess both loyalty to their Chief and respect for the traditions of their clan.

Is it because it has the clan name in the title?

Precisely. Under Scots Law the name (in a limited sense) is the property of the Chief, who is legally styled: "Chief of the Name and the Arms of Clan X". The Scottish Tartan Authority checks with Clan Chiefs before registering a tartan with a clan name or connection.

[ChattanCat]

As I understand it, Lord Reay was asked to approve the tartan after it was designed and registered, and not before. It is incredibly "bad form" to do something without first securing permission, especially when the perpetrators profess both loyalty to their Chief and respect for the traditions of their clan.Precisely. Under Scots Law the name (in a limited sense) is the property of the Chief, who is legally styled: "Chief of the Name and the Arms of Clan X". The Scottish Tartan Authority checks with Clan Chiefs before registering a tartan with a clan name or connection.

So, when it was registered, did the chef get the request for approval from the STA?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I equally don't "get" your reluctance to accept new tartans.

I have no reluctance to accept new tartans. If the Chief of a Clan wants to create a new tartan, that's his prerogative as Chief. He may or may not consult with his clan on the matter-- again, as Chief that's his prerogative.

The Clan Mackay Society, USA appears to have tried to do things in the proper way, and when met with no response, registered the tartan as their own. Why is that wrong?

To begin with, they should have done nothing until Lord Reay, their Chief, gave his consent and approval. Why? Well, because under Scots Law, he is legally "Chief of the Name and Arms" of the Clan Mackay. As such no one individual or group may usurp his name (and the name of the whole Clan, not just the USA Society) without his express permission. By law the clan is heritable property, and belongs to the chief.

Let me put it this way. I like jelly. But I can't create Clan Mackay Jelly without the Chief's permission because the phrase "Clan Mackay" implies the approval of the "owner" (ie; the Chief) of the Clan Mackay. If I did try to sell "Clan Mackay Jelly", I'd end up in a jam. Just like the people who created the tartan.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

So, when it was registered, did the chef get the request for approval from the STA?

It is my understanding that in the normal course of registering a "clan tartan", that has not been submitted by the chief, the STA does check with the chief of the clan in question. I have no idea if they spoke directly with Lord Reay or not.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

it was designed by the US branch of the Mackay clan, who have attempted to get our Chief, the Lord Reay, to recognize it but have yet to get any response from him, so it was registered with the STA as an unofficial and a corporate tartan of the Clan Mackay Society, USA

I read this to mean that the tartan was designed (and it wouldn't be unprecedented -- most "dress" versions of clan tartans began as fashion designs that were later on adopted by the clan). Then the design was submitted to the chief for his approval.

I'll stop here and say that I think up to this point all is in good form. One could argue that they should have sought the chief's approval before creating the design, but one could equally argue that getting the chief's approval would be difficult without a design for him to either approve or disapprove. I can see both points of view, and I don't think anyone should call foul for someone holding the other.

In any case, the tartan was designed, and then the chief's approval sought for the new design. And I read the above to indicate that the chief declined to either accept or reject the new tartan. And I also read the above to imply that a signifigant amount of time was allowed for the chief's reply.

No reply forthcoming, either positive or negative, what do you do with your new design? It would be improper to record it as a clan tartan without the chief's approval, so you record it as a corporate tartan for the corporate body you represent, in this case the US Clan Society. Again, not unprecidented. Many US Clan Societies even have their own heraldic Arms and crests that are recognized by the Lord Lyon. Why can't they have their own tartans, as well?

[Fedgunner]

My understanding:

I saw MacMillan modern black offered as a tartan.
I order a kilt in said tartan.
1 year later I find that the Clan Chief does not recognize the tartan.
My problem is not with my Clan Chief. It is with the folks that led me to believe it was a clan tartan, not a fashion tartan.

As an aside.. it is a kick-*** tartan. The Chief says I can wear and not promote it.
I do offer an apology to any who selected this tartan on my word.

Jack

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Many US Clan Societies even have their own heraldic Arms and crests that are recognized by the Lord Lyon. Why can't they have their own tartans, as well?

The Lord Lyon will not grant arms to a "clan society" unless the request comes from the clan chief, or carries his explicit approval. The reason for this is three fold:
(1) the clan is the heritable property of the chief; (2) the chief is the chief of "the name and the arms"; (3) any arms granted will, in all likelihood, be based on those of the chief.

Tartans are of a similar nature, although not regulated by the Lyon. And there is no reason why a "Clan Society" couldn't have its own tartan with the approval of its chief.

A tartan can be likened unto a flag insofar as it is comprised of a particular set of colours, arranged in a geometric pattern, that represents a specific tribe, or clan, of people. As the Chief is the legal owner of this "tribe" he has the sole right to determine which "flags" will represent his "tribesmen".

If the Lord Reay had wanted his USA Clan Society to have a different tartan (or flag) than every other Mackay Society in the world, he probably would have signed off on the deal. But it is just possible that he felt his clansmen would be divided, rather than unified, by the addition of this tartan. Or it might be that he thought it was just plain butt-ugly, but was too polite to say so. Or it might have been that he was speaking to other Mackay's around the world to get a general consensus of opinion as to whether or not the tartan was wanted, or needed. It doesn't matter, as I'm sure Reay has his own reasons for taking his time to respond.

Whatever Reay's reasons may have been for not answering, there is nothing to compel or require him to give any answer or explain his actions to the USA Clan Society. He is the Chief and his is the final word on all matters relating to the clan.

There was, as far as I can see, no compelling reason (other than the self-serving "I want it now" argument) to go forward with the "Clan Mackay Society of the USA, Inc." tartan before the Chief gave his approval. To take the attitude that they couldn't be bothered to wait for the Lord Reay to respond shows a colossal amount of disrespect for their chief.