MacMillan modern black tartan

[Fedgunner]

Lad,
Where I come from ye'd do better tae fall on your sword.
MacMillan predates Buch(whatever) by a fair bit.

It could be argued that Buchannan is a sept of MacMillan.
(Now there is a fight to pick)

It really is a kick-*** tartan! I think it makes up into a great looking kilt, and would probably look good as trews as well. And, the more I think about it, the more I think I ought to register the name "The Black Buchanan" and invent a whole history to go with it!

Can't wait to see you kilted in "it"!

[Jock Scot]

Actually the chiefly line may exist in, of all places, California. The Clan Buchanan Society should be looking for William McMurchie VIII or his son, William IX... and before too many of you poo-poo this remember: The Maguires of Fermanagh have resided in Virginia for over 200 years, the MacCarthy Mor lives in Australia, and The O'Rourke lives in Russia. And wasn't it an obscure opera buff living in Edinburgh who proved after twenty years in court that he was the MacDonell of Keppoch?

Oh no!Not the MacDonell of Keppoch saga!

[McClef]

There's always something romantic in managing to re-establish an apparently defunct line - a bit like The Return of the King

As to the sept bit - even if were true, would a Clan Chief have the same right of veto over a tartan that was created and registered in the name of that sept?

[Jock Scot]

There's always something romantic in managing to re-establish an apparently defunct line - a bit like The Return of the King

As to the sept bit - even if were true, would a Clan Chief have the same right of veto over a tartan that was created and registered in the name of that sept?

I would think that a Clan Chief may not have any sway here, as a sept could call and register their tartan a family tartan.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I would think that a Clan Chief may not have any sway here, as a sept could call and register their tartan a family tartan.

By which act the Sept would be leaving the clan and setting itself up as something else, lacking as they would a Chief. In short, they would no longer be considered part of the clan. In the old says I believe these were called "broken men", and were viewed almost as outcasts in traditional society.

[Jock Scot]

By which act the Sept would be leaving the clan and setting itself up as something else, lacking as they would a Chief. In short, they would no longer be considered part of the clan. In the old says I believe these were called "broken men", and were viewed almost as outcasts in traditional society.

Hello M.of R.,I am not wishing to be obtuse and I am not speaking with a huge amount of knowledge here but,there must be septs with their own family tartan,I expect I could think of some if I tried.

Lets say, the Chief of Clan MacKarrott has a sept called MacOnion and they,the MacOnions, decided to have a tartan made for the MacOnions, I don't think the Chief of Clan MacKarrott could stop(even if he wished to)that from happening.The MacOnions would still be a sept of the MacKarrotts though.Would they not?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Lad,
Where I come from ye'd do better tae fall on your sword.
MacMillan predates Buch(whatever) by a fair bit.

It could be argued that Buchanan is a sept of MacMillan.
(Now there is a fight to pick)

I think Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk pretty much nailed it by dating the arrival of the MacMillans at around 950 and the Buchanans at 1016, or some 26 minutes after we arrived! My personal view has always been that at one time both clans shared a common chief, MacMurchie, who according to MacMillan annals absconded in the early 17th century (which is about the time the MacMurchie VIII ancestor arrived in North America). From that point on, Buchanan seems to have exercised greater independence as a distinct clan.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hello M.of R.,I am not wishing to be obtuse and I am not speaking with a huge amount of knowledge here but,there must be septs with their own family tartan,I expect I could think of some if I tried.

Lets say, the Chief of Clan MacKarrott has a sept called MacOnion and they,the MacOnions, decided to have a tartan made for the MacOnions, I don't think the Chief of Clan MacKarrott could stop(even if he wished to)that from happening.The MacOnions would still be a sept of the MacKarrotts though.Would they not?

In the broadest sense, all Septs are technically "of the name and the blood". A Sept-name is basically a nickname which became synonymous with a particular, closely related group who all shared the same "clan name".

Let's go back to the vegetable patch. All the MacKarrotts live in the Karrott Patch. After a while a few move over to the Onion patch, where they are McKarrotts of Onion Patch. Their lads are known as "the sons of the Onion Patch McKarrotts", or more succinctly as MacOnions. They are still "MacKarrotts", it's just that they are know known by their location, as they live outside of the general Karrott Patch.

With regard to the "Sept tartan" issue, in the old days the Chief would say "no" and that would be an end to it. The same rule really applies today; you either are or are not a member of a clan or family. This is why many women, when divorcing their husbands, revert to their maiden name; they no longer wish to be associated with their husband's family.

The same would apply to deciding to have a Sept tartan; it would be tantamount to divorcing one's self from the clan. You would have no Chief and would be out on your own in the cold and cruel world.

Besides which that "Sept tartan" would only apply to one individual and, possibly, his wife and children. All the other "McOnions" would still be part of the clan and still wear the clan/family tartan of the MacKarrott of the Patch (their Chief).

Not meaning any offense, I think that a lot of this "Sept tartan" nonsense is started by people who feel inferior because they bear a Sept name instead of the Clan name. This is totally due to a lack of understanding as to how Septs came into being. Perhaps if they'd spend more time with the clan history books, and less time with the Crayola crayons, trying to invent tartan self esteem, there would be a lot more happy bunnies in the Karrott Patch.

[Bugbear]

Speaking of bunnies in the karrott patch, I want to think the MacMillan clan for their wonderful advice toward using corduroy for kilt jackets... and their kind treatment of a few mentaly ill members of this forum. So thank you James MacMillan and MacMillan of Rathdown , for your wonderful suggestions.

I'll go back to my gardening now.

[Jock Scot]

Hallo M.of R. no offence taken whatsoever,I can assure you.Wearing my farming hat for a wee while,happy bunnies are not what I encourage!I absolutely agree with you that there is a lot of sept nonsense talked about and I consider a lot of it to be one of the most succesful marketing ploys known to man.For those that think that "their sept"is sacrosanct I apologize.

I still believe that a family tartan does not exclude a particular name from a particular clan attachment though.I accept that it would be extremely bad form for the "Onions"(as a sept) to turn up at a Clan Karrott function clad in "Onion" tartan.