De-Anglicisation of Names

[BoldHighlander]

MOORE When you study Celtic names, the name Moore crops up as a headache every so often! It can belong to any group, including the English. See the earlier post for a translation. If it's the Irish Moore, than it's actually Ó Mórdha (pronounced OH MORE-yA) meaning descended from the great one.

I've heard some Irish speakers within Clan O'Mórda pronounce it as OH-MORE-gah.
Could this be one of those regional quirks?

I have one that perhaps you could assist with pronounciation:
McReynolds (of Keppoch) = MacRanald = Mac Mhic Raonuill = pronounced ?


Also, I (like alot of folks) thought Holmes was English (thanks to Sherlock ), but I found out that it actually has Scottish origins(!). My World Book of Holmes is packed away so I can't reference it at the moment, but do you have any thoughts on this surname? (I know that Holmes is listed as a sept for Kennedy).

Thanks.

[slohairt]

I've heard some Irish speakers within Clan O'Mórda pronounce it as OH-MORE-gah.
Could this be one of those regional quirks?

I have one that perhaps you could assist with pronounciation:
McReynolds (of Keppoch) = MacRanald = Mac Mhic Raonuill = pronounced ?


Also, I (like alot of folks) thought Holmes was English (thanks to Sherlock ), but I found out that it actually has Scottish origins(!). My World Book of Holmes is packed away so I can't reference it at the moment, but do you have any thoughts on this surname? (I know that Holmes is listed as a sept for Kennedy).

Thanks.

Boldhighlander,

1) Firstly, yes, it is a dialectic difference. The aspirated d (rendered as dh) is pronounced by some as a "y" sound, and by others as a hard "g" sound. Some modern Irish language spellings of the name omit the dh altogether, rendering it as Ó Móra. While we're on that topic, the apostrophe after the O prefix in an Irish surname is an Anglicisation itself, and is not part of the Irish language. It is always Ó, meaning descended from or grandson of. The O' is probably from English scribes confusing it with of. Also, the name should be spelled in Irish, Ó Mórdha or Ó Móra (depending on one's preference). By not aspirating (adding the "h") to the d, an Irish-speaker would pronounce the name as OH MORD-A. This confusion is often seen in Irish names today because the original Irish script did not use an h to represent aspiration after a consonant, but instead used a dot over the top of the letter. Many Irish names are mistakenly spelled this way; Domnall, instead of the correct, Domhnall, etc. People would forget to "replace" the dot with an H. Baffled? Sorry...

2) Mac Raonuill would be pronounced MAC RAIN-ILL. Mac Mhic Raonuill would be pronounced as MAC VICK RAIN-ILL. These are Scottish Gaelic spellings, the Irish would Mac Raonaill, but pronounced the same.

3) Etymologically speaking, the name Holmes is of Norse origin, from holmr. Therefore it can occur anywhere in the Isles.

[BoldHighlander]

Interesting....thanks.

Boldhighlander,

1) Firstly, yes, it is a dialectic difference. The aspirated d (rendered as dh) is pronounced by some as a "y" sound, and by others as a hard "g" sound. Some modern Irish language spellings of the name omit the dh altogether, rendering it as Ó Móra. While we're on that topic, the apostrophe after the O prefix in an Irish surname is an Anglicisation itself, and is not part of the Irish language. It is always Ó, meaning descended from or grandson of. The O' is probably from English scribes confusing it with of. Also, the name should be spelled in Irish, Ó Mórdha or Ó Móra (depending on one's preference). By not aspirating (adding the "h") to the d, an Irish-speaker would pronounce the name as OH MORD-A. This confusion is often seen in Irish names today because the original Irish script did not use an h to represent aspiration after a consonant, but instead used a dot over the top of the letter. Many Irish names are mistakenly spelled this way; Domnall, instead of the correct, Domhnall, etc. People would forget to "replace" the dot with an H. Baffled? Sorry...

2) Mac Raonuill would be pronounced MAC RAIN-ILL. Mac Mhic Raonuill would be pronounced as MAC VICK RAIN-ILL. These are Scottish Gaelic spellings, the Irish would Mac Raonaill, but pronounced the same.

3) Etymologically speaking, the name Holmes is of Norse origin, from holmr. Therefore it can occur anywhere in the Isles.

[CEF]

Slohairt,
A very interesting thread.
Anything on the surname Foster?

Many thanks
Cef

[slohairt]

Slohairt,
A very interesting thread.
Anything on the surname Foster?

Many thanks
Cef

I would say it is an English occupational name, cognitive with Forester. The Irish word for forest is coill or foraois. I can't remember what the Irish word for Forester would be exactly, but the term for Ranger is Maol Páirce. An Irish "translation" (for entertainment purposes only) would be Mac an Maol Páirce, pronounced MAC AN MAIL PAWRK-yA.

[CelticMedic]

I have been told my Grandmothers father changed his name from Mc or MacGavin to Gavin because it "Sounded less Scot/Irish" so he could claim to be of British decent to potentail employers...is McGavin the base for Gavin or does it go further than that? Thanks.
My mothers maiden name was Doherty, which I have been to goes back to at least the 4th cent AD to (bare with me) O'Doctherian. (I have been told that this translates to Black King or Unlucky King, because he was killed and his family was scattered.
My name is Sommers, German name, which may be an occupational name, from Summoner, one who posts official notices or calls people before the autorities...but who knows.

[slohairt]

I have been told my Grandmothers father changed his name from Mc or MacGavin to Gavin because it "Sounded less Scot/Irish" so he could claim to be of British decent to potentail employers...is McGavin the base for Gavin or does it go further than that? Thanks.
My mothers maiden name was Doherty, which I have been to goes back to at least the 4th cent AD to (bare with me) O'Doctherian. (I have been told that this translates to Black King or Unlucky King, because he was killed and his family was scattered.
My name is Sommers, German name, which may be an occupational name, from Summoner, one who posts official notices or calls people before the autorities...but who knows.

Sorry I missed this one!

GAVIN

I'll assume that you mean English descent when you refer to British descent, as the Scots are (and the Irish were at that time) considered British. This is ironic, considering none of the accepted etymologies for the name are English!

1) If it is of Brythonic etymology (i.e. Welsh, Cornish, Strathclyde Britons, etc.), it is derived from the personal name, Gawain (of Arthurian fame), and would have no connection to M(a)cGavin.

2) If of Gaelic origin, it can be Anglicised from these possibilities:

Mac Gabhann (IRISH; older form Mac an Gobhainn) pronounced MAC GOW-AN or MAC GAV-AN. This is a patronymic meaning son of the smith.

Mac a' Gobhainn (SCOTTISH GAELIC) As the Irish example above.

Ó Gábháin (IRISH - pronounced O GAUV-AUN or O GOW-AUN) meaning descended from Gábhán, a personal name meaning little needy one.

DOHERTY This is actually Anglicised from the Irish, Ó Dochartaigh (pronounced O DOKH-ERT-EE) meaning descended from Dochartach. This personal name means unfortunate one. It has nothing to do with black or dark, though I supposed some may confuse the first syllable with dorcha, which DOES mean dark.

Here's some information on Clann Uí Dhochartaigh: They were originally a branch of the Cinéal Conaill, and were chiefs of Cinéal Éanna and Aodha Miodhair. By the end of the 14th Century, they were in control of Inis Eoghain (Inishowen Peninsula). Like most Irish clans, they lands and power was shattered in the 17th Century. The name is still very common in County Donegal and other parts of Ulster.

[Graywolf]

Slohairt,
A very interesting thread.
Anything on the surname Foster?

Many thanks
Cef

Foster, we may be related - I am 12th great grandson of Susan Forester, descendent of Thomas Forster, who married Joan de Elemedon, descendent of Gilbert d'Umfraville, who married Elizabeth de Comyn, Grand daughter of Richard Comyn, who is a descendent of Kenneth MacAlpine

[BoldHighlander]

Boldhighlander,
3) Etymologically speaking, the name Holmes is of Norse origin, from holmr. Therefore it can occur anywhere in the Isles.

I tried to add this to my other reply, but for some reason it wouldn't let me
Anyhow...

I had never ran across the Norse origin for Holmes, that is most interesting.
Here's what I've been able to dig up thus far:

Last Name Meaning & Genealogy Links for the Surname HOLMES
Meaning & Origin: A geographical surname from the northern Middle English holm, meaning "island" for an individual who lived on an island, or a piece of low-lying meadow lands near or surrounded by water.
Also, a geographic surname for someone who lived near where holly trees grew, from the Middle English holm.

Sometimes an Anglicized version of the Irish, Mac an Thomáis.

Surname Origin: English
Alternate Surname Spellings: HOLME, HUME, HOME, HOLM

===========================

Last name origins & meanings:

English (chiefly central and northern England): variant of Holme.
Scottish: probably a habitational name from Holmes near Dundonald, or from a place so called in the barony of Inchestuir.
Scottish and Irish: Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Thomáis, Mac Thómais (see McComb). In part of western Ireland, Holmes is a variant of Cavish (from Gaelic Mac Thámhais, another patronymic from Thomas).

Thanks again...this is a very interesting thread.

[slohairt]

I tried to add this to my other reply, but for some reason it wouldn't let me
Anyhow...

I had never ran across the Norse origin for Holmes, that is most interesting.
Here's what I've been able to dig up thus far:

Last Name Meaning & Genealogy Links for the Surname HOLMES
Meaning & Origin: A geographical surname from the northern Middle English holm, meaning "island" for an individual who lived on an island, or a piece of low-lying meadow lands near or surrounded by water.
Also, a geographic surname for someone who lived near where holly trees grew, from the Middle English holm.

Sometimes an Anglicized version of the Irish, Mac an Thomáis.

Surname Origin: English
Alternate Surname Spellings: HOLME, HUME, HOME, HOLM

===========================

Last name origins & meanings:

English (chiefly central and northern England): variant of Holme.
Scottish: probably a habitational name from Holmes near Dundonald, or from a place so called in the barony of Inchestuir.
Scottish and Irish: Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Thomáis, Mac Thómais (see McComb). In part of western Ireland, Holmes is a variant of Cavish (from Gaelic Mac Thámhais, another patronymic from Thomas).

Thanks again...this is a very interesting thread.

The northern English word holm, I believe, IS derived from the Norse holmr, as many place name elements in the north of England are derived from Norse. I'm speaking etymologically, of course. This does not mean that the bearers of the name are of Norse origin, merely the word they use as a surname is.

Mac Thomáis (the "an" would incorrect as it means "the") does indeed mean son of Tomás (Thomas) in Irish. This would be pronounced as MAC HOM-ISH. Mac Thomàis and Mac Tamhais are Scottish Gaelic and are pronounced MAC HOM-ISH and MAC TAV-ISH respectively.

McComb would be Anglicised from Mac Thoim meaning son of Tom.