Help with white tie

[Gauranga]

This is what Wikipedia has to say about wearing the Scottish National Dress to a white tie event:

Scottish Highland dress

As a specific example of national dress, Scottish Highland dress may also be worn at white tie events.

The traditional white tie version of Highland dress consists of:

* Black formal kilt jacket - the Prince Charlie coatee, Montrose doublet, Sheriffmuir doublet, Kenmore doublet or regulation doublet is suitable
* Black barathea (or velvet, with a velvet doublet) or white piqué waistcoat; no waistcoat is worn with the Kenmore doublet
* Kilt
* White piqué shirt with white studs and cufflinks
* White piqué bow tie with the coatee or regulation doublet; white lace jabot with the other doublets
* Black Ghillie brogues; black buckle brogues ("Mary Janes") may be worn with the Montrose, Sheriffmuir, or Kenmore doublet
* Tartan or red and white, red and black or blue and white diced kilt hose
* Flashes
* Sporran - formal type with a silver-mounted cantle-top and fur pouch or a full fur and animal mask type

[davedove]

You know, in none of these lists do I ever see the fly plaid mentioned. Now, if I want to wear a plaid, I'm going to wear one. However, it would be good to know what is "proper".

[McClef]

Nobody can doubt your experience M.O.R. But as has been pointed out, ANY national dress option is going to make you look different to those dressed in white tie and tails. It may actually serve to open conversations where you may then demonstrate your wit, charm, and intellect.

However I don't think this is the point of this particular thread - it is to do with graduation - a white tie (as at St Andrews) doesn't come with the full list of other do's and don'ts. Nobody will be wearing a graduation gown with/without mortar board and the hood of their degree at a diplomatic ball.

[Coemgen]

For clarification: We performers will be the only ones in white tie. The audience will probably not be dressed all that formally (I've been to one of these recitals in the past - small audience, mostly in business casual).

Also, would a full mask sporran be an acceptable replacement for a silver cantled sporran?

[Chef]

I don't agree that you shouldn't be noticed for your clothing. Maybe it's my vanity, maybe I'm just smooth and good looking. I could always wear the normal, black tie, white shirt, generic tux; or I could add some slight touches and make a couple of choices to really make my black tie outfit my own.

<snip>

So let us take this into account with a kilt. Go ahead, throw away that white shirt if you don't like it. Do you have a color in your tartan that needs to be emphasized? Maybe your tartan has black stripes in it, try a black shirt. Experiment with tie color. It's clothing, go ahead and make a statement. I promise, if you wear a not-white shirt with a kilt to a black tie event, nobody is going to mock you for your shirt. They are going to envy you for the way a kilt looks on a confident man who knows how to dress. By the way, a black shirt under a black waistcoat makes women weak in the knees! I kid you not.
<snip>

Just my two cents, not trying to ruffle feathers, just putting out some options based on personal experience.

Sorry, MacMillan is correct on white tie. He may be the only person here who has attended more events in white tie than I have and I completely agree with him. Frequently I am in the same position as Coemgen, where only performers or members of a dais are in white tie.

There is a huge difference be black tie and white tie. While "creative" black tie has become accepted thanks mostly to celebrities, "creative" white tie has not. Maybe because celebrities don't do white tie. Certainly showing up in highland dress white tie will set you apart, so it is very important to make sure the rest of your outfit meets expectations.

Let's also look at Coemgen's situation. He is not attending a ball; he will be a performer at what would likely be considered a conservative institution. He also had to ask for permission to wear his highland kit. SO this is definitely the time to do it right.

So Coemgen, follow MacMillan's advice and you will shine.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Nobody can doubt your experience M.O.R. But as has been pointed out, ANY national dress option is going to make you look different to those dressed in white tie and tails. It may actually serve to open conversations where you may then demonstrate your wit, charm, and intellect.

Forget "National dress options"-- outside of a movie I've never seen someone in a dashiki at a white tie event. And, frankly, white tie looks pretty much the same from the waist up no matter what you're wearing.

However I don't think this is the point of this particular thread - it is to do with graduation - a white tie (as at St Andrews) doesn't come with the full list of other do's and don'ts. Nobody will be wearing a graduation gown with/without mortar board and the hood of their degree at a diplomatic ball.

The question was about what to wear when performing at a musical recital, not a graduation ceremony. That said, white tie is still white tie. Others performing at the recital will be in traditional white tie, not some interpretive version that asserts their right to clothe themselves with total disregard for the conventions of proper dress. In short it is about conforming so that the "costume" of the performer does nothing to detract from the artistry of the performance. It is the difference between the Music Hall and the Recital Hall.

[McClef]

Forget "National dress options"-- outside of a movie I've never seen someone in a dashiki at a white tie event. And, frankly, white tie looks pretty much the same from the waist up no matter what you're wearing.

I cannot forget it because it is officially allowed for and only last week BBC4 showed a repeat of the state visit of the President of Ghana and he wore his native dress at the state dinner. It looked like a dashiki type thing to me and he walked into the dinner side by side with Her Majesty - don't think she was making a movie. I realise that you don't get BBC4 over there but simply to make the point that just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

As to the second sentence: Does it? What of all those nice shiny studs on a Montrose or (dare I say it a PC) and the Jabot is somewhat frillier and more noticeable and bigger than a white bow tie.

So even seated there is a difference and when stood the below the waist dissimilarity becomes all the more noticeable.

Even at black tie events it is the same noticeable difference - it doesn't melt into oblivion because of the higher level of formality expected at a white tie.

[Jack Daw]

White tie is just that, white tie, and the rules are the same whether kilted or in tails.

FORMAL WHITE SHIRT WITH WING COLLAR;
WHITE WAISTCOAT;
WHITE TIE;
TARTAN HOSE or DICED HOSE or BLACK HOSE;
DRESS SPORRAN (silver mounted);
BLACK EVENING JACKET (Prince Charlie coatee);
BLACK EVENING SHOES (well polished plain black shoes; NO brogues).

As previously stated, do not wear your bonnet, and do not wear your plaid. When you can afford to up-grade your sporran, do so. Either one of those silver mounted fur things or a long horse hair or goat hair sporran is appropriate for white tie.

While living in Europe I attended (on average) six white tie dinners a year, plus two or three white tie balls. I did this every year for nearly twenty one years, so I probably have more real world experience than anyone else on this forum.

The whole purpose of formal attire is to blend in, not stand out. You are supposed to look like everyone else, but be remembered for your wit, charm, and intellect. If you stand out because of the way you are dressed, you will be mocked, not admired.

Like I said, it's all about conforming. And doing it so well that you are admired for it.

Sounds sound.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I cannot forget it because it is officially allowed for and only last week BBC4 showed a repeat of the state visit of the President of Ghana and he wore his native dress at the state dinner. It looked like a dashiki type thing to me and he walked into the dinner side by side with Her Majesty - don't think she was making a movie. I realise that you don't get BBC4 over there but simply to make the point that just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Actually, I do get BBC 4, although I rarely bother to watch the Beeb or any other channel for that matter. I much prefer to be out and about and in the thick of things.

There is a world of difference between a state banquet, a musical recital, and the new year's ball in Vienna. Of course a visiting head of state would be expected to wear his national mode of dress. For instance: When Her Majesty visited Japan a few years ago, she didn't wear a kimono to the state banquet. At least not that I noticed on BBC 4.

I agree that just because I haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've seen lots of suggestions, on this and other threads, about how to dress that are, in my opinion, mind-numbing in their lack of style and good taste. Now I haven't actually seen anybody dressed as was suggested, but I'm sure that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

If one is required to wear white tie (as opposed to choosing to wear white tie) then one has to follow the rules. All of 'em.

You have an awesome motorcycle. And to ride it, you have to follow certain rules. One of those rules requires you to wear a helmet. Now you may prefer wearing one of those WWI German army spiked helmets, but if you do there will probably be some undesirable consequences. To be sure, you will attract a lot of attention, and probably receive some favourable comments regarding your picklehaube. But this attention will do nothing to mitigate the unfavourable consequence of your act. You will get a ticket, you may get banned.

A gentleman in highland attire, following all the rules, will hardly rate a second glance at a formal function. A guy dressed up like he's just stepped off the lid of a shortbread tin, or is on his way to audition for the second lead in a Christmas pantomime will, however, attract a lot of attention. For all the wrong reasons. And he will probably become the unwitting victim of the perfect crime.

And what is that perfect crime? Ridicule.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I cannot forget it because it is officially allowed for and only last week BBC4 showed a repeat of the state visit of the President of Ghana and he wore his native dress at the state dinner. It looked like a dashiki type thing to me and he walked into the dinner side by side with Her Majesty - don't think she was making a movie. I realise that you don't get BBC4 over there but simply to make the point that just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Actually, I do get BBC 4, although I rarely bother to watch the Beeb or any other channel for that matter. I much prefer to be out and about and in the thick of things.

There is a world of difference between a state banquet, a musical recital, and the new year's ball in Vienna. Of course a visiting head of state would be expected to wear his national mode of dress. For instance: When Her Majesty visited Japan a few years ago, she didn't wear a kimono to the state banquet. At least not that I noticed on BBC 4.

I agree that just because I haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've seen lots of suggestions, on this and other threads, about how to dress that are, in my opinion, mind-numbing in their lack of style and good taste. Now I haven't actually seen anybody dressed as was suggested, but I'm sure that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

If one is required to wear white tie (as opposed to choosing to wear white tie) then one has to follow the rules. All of 'em.

You have an awesome motorcycle. And to ride it, you have to follow certain rules. One of those rules requires you to wear a helmet. Now you may prefer wearing one of those WWI German army spiked helmets, but if you do there will probably be some undesirable consequences. To be sure, you will attract a lot of attention, and probably receive some favourable comments regarding your picklehaube. But this attention will do nothing to mitigate the unfavourable consequence of your act. You will get a ticket, you may get banned.

A gentleman in highland attire, following all the rules, will hardly rate a second glance at a formal function. A guy dressed up like he's just stepped off the lid of a shortbread tin, or is on his way to audition for the second lead in a Christmas pantomime will, however, attract a lot of attention. For all the wrong reasons. And he will probably become the unwitting victim of the perfect crime.

And what is that perfect crime? Ridicule.