Tartan tat kings go Scottish

[BoldHighlander]

I've been following this thread and have come to the conclusion that what most everyone is missing, and the point I see McClef making over and over, is this (and I'll say it slow so everyone gets it):

"TRUTH IN ADVERTISING"

In other words if the Gold Bros weren't advertising their cheaper off-the-peg kilts as "made in Scotland" (which these kilts aren't) then there wouldn't be such a controversy. Then you all could just debate the merits of quality & craftsmanship.

[Monkey@Arms]

I've been following this thread and have come to the conclusion that what most everyone is missing, and the point I see McClef making over and over, is this (and I'll say it slow so everyone gets it):

"TRUTH IN ADVERTISING"

In other words if the Gold Bros weren't advertising their cheaper off-the-peg kilts as "made in Scotland" (which these kilts aren't) then there wouldn't be such a controversy. Then you all could just debate the merits of quality & craftsmanship.

Actually I believe they advertise them as "Designed in Scotland", but I agree that instead of all the bitching and moaning, a simple truth in advertising law would solve a lot of problems. That does not require defining a Scottish Kilt or all the other protectionist measures, just a label listing the place of origin of the fabric and manufacture.

I'd also once again point out that the GB kilts that sell for under one hundred pounds do not compete in the same segment of the market as custom made kilts. But perhaps some rival kilt sellers prefer publicity to solutions.

Best

Jake

[McClef]

Thanks BoldHighlander.

I'm a tenacious cuss I know!

Their cheapies don't use the phrase "Made in Scotland" - they have on the label "Scottish Highland KILT Authentic Woven Tartan - Designed in Scotland."

The label then gives the tartan name and the waist size.

What do people see? The words Scottish, Kilt, Highland, Tartan and Scotland and what impression does that make? The mind links with Scotland, just as the name of their shops includes it. The phrase "Kilt Maker" is somewhat absent apart from those they have acquired such as John Morrison and then they are happy to apply the "Made in Scotland" label.

The bulk of their sales is still with the cheapie off the peg ones - where is the honest labelling there?

[ForresterModern]

Right now on their Heritage of Scotland website they are advertising a special sale of a variety of items, one of which is a 5 yd 16oz worsted wool kilt in a special collection of tartans in limited sizes for 49gbp (42 without VAT), and they state right in the description that they are made by their kiltmakers in Scotland (no mention of the tartan manufacture origin). Only in 24 inch length which probably doesnt help us tall or short guys much.

[sharpdressedscot]

Weren't all kilts designed in Scotland?

[Coemgen]

[Nanook]

Their cheapies don't use the phrase "Made in Scotland" - they have on the label "Scottish Highland KILT Authentic Woven Tartan - Designed in Scotland."

They are 1) Scottish Highland KIlt (just not terribly fine in quality and made somewhere other than Scotland) 2) Use some kind of woven cloth (albeit not wool and not from Scottish sheep) 3) Are designed in Scotland (I have no doubt that the design and specifications have come from the Gold Bros. which are a Scottish Company). The Singh Gold family are as Scottish, after all, as Sir Montague Burton (founder of Burtons), Michael Marks (co-founder of Marks and Spenser) were English. That goes for almost the entire garment industry of Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow...... And even the "Gentile" shops of Savile Row... Following the great wave of Jewish migration from czarist Russia, not only did Jewish tailors produce mass goods in the East End but also the West End and Savile Row (by the 1920s most Savile Row shops used "cheap Jewish tailors"). In the US it was really not much different (with a slightly different demographics which included a large wave of Italian tailors among the 2 million that arrived between 1900 and 1910).

What do people see? The words Scottish, Kilt, Highland, Tartan and Scotland and what impression does that make?

And what impression does a pair of Nike shoes? Ralph Lauren pullover? Levis jeans (an American household staple but they aren't made in America anymore), Tommy Hilfiger shirt,.... None of it "made in the USA". And what does garment production in the USA look like? Sweat shops and piece-rate "sub-contractors" continue to feed on an "undocumented" and easily exploited workforce.

If you were to apply the demand that "Scottish kilts" be labeled as to the source of their tartans, the wool and the workmanship.. (why not even the means of production as there are differences between individual kilt makers and the increasingly common assembly line methods) and apply it to nearly any other items in the shops.. things were look quite odd.. The $600 English shoe made by subcontractors in Spain or Romania.. Clothing is global! How about American fried chicken? China imports chicken feet from the US and the US imports cheap chickens from Thailand. An American brand is no guarantee that its "Made in America" perhaps a good bet that its probably not. Back to shoes.. Most of the European dress shoes that are sold in the American market under American labels at most of the mainstream shops and dept stores are not even made in Europe but.. India.. not really even India.. but China using Indian leather (global sub-contracting, environment and fun with national origin labeling)... Clothing.. Used to be a lot was made in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey, North Africa (for the US also Mexico).. but now with the quotas off.. its China. Already nearly 80 percent of the U.S. clothing market!

And even Scottish made clothing.. Where do you think the material likely comes from? "Made in Scotland" does not mean entirely made in Scotland. Even the finest "made in Scotland" kilt probably has imported leather straps and buckles. "Made in.." does not also say anything about "who".

And there is a niche in US. Shoes and clothing continue to be made to high standards (ecological and human). Dov Charney (from Westmount, Montreal) has had great success with "American Apparel": made in Los Angeles without sweat shops and piece price but $13 minimum wage (contrasted to some of the big US designer labels that have time and again found among their textiles goods produced using child and slave labour via sub-contractors in places that make China look good).....

Truth? Truth of the matter.. Why get so upset with the Scottish Singh-Gold family and not with WPG in Salinas? His "army" kilts are not Scottish (and not designed in Scotland) but made in Pakistan. They are fine kilts but not very accurate reproductions and easy to spot when compared to the "real thing" (which is natural given that "real" army kilts were completely handsewn and made by some of the best shops including Wm Anderson and Thomas Gordon & Sons using very special cloth made by Robert Noble of Peebles).

And who provides jobs in Scotland?

[McClef]

Right now on their Heritage of Scotland website they are advertising a special sale of a variety of items, one of which is a 5 yd 16oz worsted wool kilt in a special collection of tartans in limited sizes for 49gbp (42 without VAT), and they state right in the description that they are made by their kiltmakers in Scotland (no mention of the tartan manufacture origin). Only in 24 inch length which probably doesnt help us tall or short guys much.

The 24 inch thing is pretty common with off the peg kilts - my recent kilt from the Woolen Mill is and ones that I have had from Carse of Gowrie are also but they can also be more up front about the origin of the cloth although not necessarily completely informative. I guess that because stock is involved they want an average length that will fit the most potential customers just as they will only go for a limited choice of tartans for a similar reason.

Carse of Gowrie state "woven by a Tartan Manufacturer, recommended by the Scottish Tartan Authority." They don't name them.

The Woollen Mill doesn't state mill of origin on the website. But do respond to questions.

Weren't all kilts designed in Scotland?

Well the modern kilt if popularly ascribed to an Englishman but he could have been in Scotland when he did it!

[Larry124]

My question is the same as others have raised and I haven't seen an answer.

Has anyone actually had one of the Gold Brothers kilts in their hands or wrapped around their waist?

I would be very interested in a side by side comparison.

I own a few SWK, USA, etc and several tanks.

Are the Gold Brothers kilts really the same as those that Jerry sells?

I have SWK Standards, FC 16 oz, and Heritage of Scotland’s (HS) Casuals.

The SWK’s are the lightest and softest. The FC’s feel slightly heavier and less soft. The HS’s are the heaviest and stiffest – texture a little like canvas.

The HS are labeled 65% Viscose Rayon and 35% Acetate Fibre.

The FC and HS have deeper pleats than the SWK.

The SWK buckles are attached with fabric, the HS with leather. The buckles and straps are comparable, with the HS having a fifth adjustment hole. The FC’s have lesser quality buckles and attachments.

I enjoy all three.

[McClef]

They are 1) Scottish Highland KIlt (just not terribly fine in quality and made somewhere other than Scotland) 2) Use some kind of woven cloth (albeit not wool and not from Scottish sheep) 3) Are designed in Scotland (I have no doubt that the design and specifications have come from the Gold Bros. which are a Scottish Company). The Singh Gold family are as Scottish, after all, as Sir Montague Burton (founder of Burtons), Michael Marks (co-founder of Marks and Spenser) were English.

All of what you say above could be argued but the impression the label seeks to create isn't how Scottish the Golds are but how Scottish their product is. The Golds aren't even the only concern to sell these kilts with this label - I have seen them in other places such as John O'Groats also so it's unlikely they are unique to them to begin with. The composition of the cloth is not given and as we have seen from other posts they are a potential fire hazard so information regarding composition could be vital. Most other clothing carries this information, wherever it's made in the global market.

If you were to apply the demand that "Scottish kilts" be labeled as to the source of their tartans, the wool and the workmanship.. (why not even the means of production as there are differences between individual kilt makers and the increasingly common assembly line methods) and apply it to nearly any other items in the shops.. things were look quite odd..

And even Scottish made clothing.. Where do you think the material likely comes from? "Made in Scotland" does not mean entirely made in Scotland. Even the finest "made in Scotland" kilt probably has imported leather straps and buckles. "Made in.." does not also say anything about "who".

I was one of those who criticised Howie's definition that a Scottish kilt had to be hand sewn. No cotton is grown in Scotland so a cotton garment saying "Made in Scotland" would of course refer only to the country of manufacture.

But it does mean that Scottish workers have been involved. It is of course impossible to always have everything 100% - heck even if the leather straps and buckles were Scottish, there is still COTTON involved in the sewing! But what percentage of a cheapie can really claim anything Scottish apart from its appearance and the fact that is is offered for sale there?

Truth? Truth of the matter.. Why get so upset with the Scottish Singh-Gold family and not with WPG in Salinas? His "army" kilts are not Scottish (and not designed in Scotland) but made in Pakistan. They are fine kilts but not very accurate reproductions and easy to spot when compared to the "real thing" (which is natural given that "real" army kilts were completely handsewn and made by some of the best shops including Wm Anderson and Thomas Gordon & Sons using very special cloth made by Robert Noble of Peebles).

And who provides jobs in Scotland?

I know nothing of WPG in terms of seeing and handling and I also do not know what is shown on the label. But I do know they are not located in the Scottish capital with many shops in the tourist areas purporting to be what they are not. It's virtually a unique situation.

As to the jobs, my experience of looking in their shops is that when you are approached by a member of staff they are more likely to be from an eastern Europe EC country who are often unable to answer questions. Heck in one shop I saw a guy trying a cheapie on and he had it the classic wrong way around with the pleats at he front - the staff had done nothing to correct him - I had to do it! Some shops had signs in advertising for staff but Scots seem reluctant to apply for the positions.