Kilted John Barrowman

[mexpiper]

Torchwood Rocks.... but than again so does Dr. Who...


geez, i think i have my Whovian Membership card from the 1980's, I know its in my Tardis Bank...

[AtagahiKC]

As for his comments about wearing his kilt to prom and the reaction - it was in the 1980s and he went to school in Peoria, IL.

Peoria is in the middle of the farm country in the southern part of Illinois. It is more of a farm town with more conservative leanings and attitudes than in Chicago to its north. The current population is around 110K according to Wikipedia.

You'll recall the saying, "Will it play in Peoria?" because Peoria came to represent middle American taste and values.

If I'd worn a kilt to my prom in Kansas in 1981, I'd have been more than ridiculed. It might not be the same today, but, honestly, it probably would be. Prejudices about people who act differently change slowly in small town America, in my experience.

In fact, I wore my kilt at home in rural Kansas to my father's house a year or so ago. He was so happy -- that I didn't stop in town so his friends would see me in it. (His side of the family is the Scottish side, mind you.) I stopped at the gas station on the way out of town, just because I'm that kind of ornery.

I recall reading a fairly recent article somewhere where his date to the prom mentioned that he wore a "skirt" to the prom. Even she wasn't thrilled about his desire to honor his Scottish heritage two decades later.

So don't give Barrowman too much crap for his attitude about small rural Midwestern American towns. He came by it honestly. He earned it the old fashioned way.

[Kizmet]

I would agree with Todd about acceptance and ignorance; they both occur all over the States.
As to the kilt and prom, I would think there would be more acceptance now than when Barrowman was in high school, at least I hope so!


Cheers!

Well, the ignorance continues here. Prester John's son was told not to wear his kilt to their prom at the end of the month because it's "an American prom."

The principal told my son last year that he couldn't wear his kilt to school for an event in Speech class (she let him once, but not the 2nd time) because he needed to save it for special occasions. Prom seems pretty special to me. He'll be talking to the principal to remind her of her very words tomorrow.


ETA: I don't like David Tennant's Doctor at all, what I've seen of it. I haven't seen Torchwood at all.

Jon Pertwee. He's my Doctor.

[macwilkin]

As for his comments about wearing his kilt to prom and the reaction - it was in the 1980s and he went to school in Peoria, IL.

Peoria is in the middle of the farm country in the southern part of Illinois. It is more of a farm town with more conservative leanings and attitudes than in Chicago to its north. The current population is around 110K according to Wikipedia.

You'll recall the saying, "Will it play in Peoria?" because Peoria came to represent middle American taste and values.

If I'd worn a kilt to my prom in Kansas in 1981, I'd have been more than ridiculed. It might not be the same today, but, honestly, it probably would be. Prejudices about people who act differently change slowly in small town America, in my experience.

In fact, I wore my kilt at home in rural Kansas to my father's house a year or so ago. He was so happy -- that I didn't stop in town so his friends would see me in it. (His side of the family is the Scottish side, mind you.) I stopped at the gas station on the way out of town, just because I'm that kind of ornery.

I recall reading a fairly recent article somewhere where his date to the prom mentioned that he wore a "skirt" to the prom. Even she wasn't thrilled about his desire to honor his Scottish heritage two decades later.

So don't give Barrowman too much crap for his attitude about small rural Midwestern American towns. He came by it honestly. He earned it the old fashioned way.

As my Iowa grandfather would say, hogwash.

Point taken, but I, as a midwesterner, don't appreciate being lumped in with ignorant people. To borrow a line from the movie Gettysburg, "any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit."

I've worn my kilt on numerous occasions here in Southwest Missouri, and not just in Springfield. Sure, you get the odd snide comment and odd look, but really -- who cares? I wore my kilt this weekend in downtown Branson, Missouri and honestly, I can't remember what reaction, good or bad, I got from passers-by.

Are there close-minded people in the Midwest? Sure. I bet there are some in San Francisco as well, but I wouldn't say all San Franciscans are closed-minded jerks. As I said before, ignorance knows no geographical boundaries.

I've met just as many folks in SW Missouri who think that being proud of your roots is a good thing.

Regards,

Todd

[auld argonian]

I was under the impression that JB lived in Aurora, Illinois when his family was in the States. (Aurora was, some of you may remember, the home town of Wayne and Garth from Wayne's World...and, no, there never was a real Stan Mikita's Donut Shop!) His bio in Wikipedia mentions that he attended Joliet West HS where he started his acting and singing pursuits...I can attest to the fact that Joliet West is a BIG speech and theatre school, having competed against them in forensics and contest play during my own high school career.

Best

AA

[davedove]

As my Iowa grandfather would say, hogwash.

Point taken, but I, as a midwesterner, don't appreciate being lumped in with ignorant people. To borrow a line from the movie Gettysburg, "any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit."

I've worn my kilt on numerous occasions here in Southwest Missouri, and not just in Springfield. Sure, you get the odd snide comment and odd look, but really -- who cares? I wore my kilt this weekend in downtown Branson, Missouri and honestly, I can't remember what reaction, good or bad, I got from passers-by.

Are there close-minded people in the Midwest? Sure. I bet there are some in San Francisco as well, but I wouldn't say all San Franciscans are closed-minded jerks. As I said before, ignorance knows no geographical boundaries.

I've met just as many folks in SW Missouri who think that being proud of your roots is a good thing.

Regards,

Todd

I have to agree with Todd on this one, and not just because I was raised in a small town in southern Illinois (By the way, Peoria is not in the southern part of the state. It is north of Springfield, and therefore in the northern half of the state. Of course, to those in Chicago, everything else is southern Illinois.)

Now, I will admit we had our share of close-minded people in my small home town. But, I have met just as many from the large cities. Neither has a monopoly, there just close-minded about different things. For instance, I have met some people from New York City whose attitude was that if it wasn't the New York way, it was worthless. I've also met some great people from there.

Every place has its share of those who won't learn and can't accept that which is different.

[AtagahiKC]

I think we are slightly askew in subject matter. Neither Barrowman's opinion nor mine are based strictly on kilt-wearing. I am talking about general levels of tolerance, not just kilts. I believe that what Barrowman says that he bases his opinion on, the flak he received over wearing his kilt and having a Glasgow accent, were just two of the symptoms of the larger problem of intolerance of differences in the Midwest, which he feels existed.

Yes, you can probably wear a kilt in Southwest Missouri without receiving too much flak. But I think that is the minimum measure of tolerance, not the maximum.

No one area has a monopoly on tolerance. But some areas have greater amounts than others. You can feel it when you move from one area of the country to another. Counter to what I thought I'd find, Arizona had a much greater level of tolerance of differences than I ever found in the Midwest.

But overall, it is no accident that high school principals in rural Missouri and a few other Midwestern states have been the ones fight the wearing of kilts by young men at proms. They wouldn't be fighting perceived differences were there not more people in their communities who supported their prejudice than those who did not.

That is not to say that there aren't people who disagree with those principals in their communities. Apparently, they are not in sufficient numbers to change the principals' minds, though.

I'm glad your experience has been different than mine. But just because your experience was different doesn't make Barrowman's or my experience less valid than yours.

There is room for all of our opinions and all of our experiences. I'm glad that you love the Midwest and enjoy living there.

My experience with the Midwest wasn't terrible, but having experienced living in an area with greater tolerance, it became one of the main reasons I moved away. But you know, vive le difference. That's why there are different places to live.

Finally, I stand corrected, Peoria is in Northern Illinois. I accept the local rules on geographical placement. I also accept that Barrowman might have come from Joliet. That sounds right to me now that you've said it.

Let's just be glad that Barrowman still wears his kilt proudly, as do I.

[macwilkin]

My point is that in the rural Midwest, in the 1980s when Barrowman formed his opinion, there was less tolerance for deviance from the norm than there is today.

You took my opinion about attitudes in my father's hometown in Kansas today and extrapolated them to mean all of the Midwest today. In fact, I meant that rural attitudes haven't changed that much in the intervening 25 years or so since I lived in rural Kansas.

From what I saw and experienced in living in Missouri for over 20 years was that the same intolerance existed in rural Missouri as in rural Kansas, even as late as 2007, when I moved away.

Perhaps the same intolerance didn't exist in rural Illinois at the time Barrowman lived there, but at least one person, Barrowman, believes it did. Peoria isn't that far from Missouri, so it seems more unlikely that tolerance levels changed dramatically in so short a distance.

In fact, my experience in Kansas City was different from my experience in rural Kansas. My experience in arch-conservative Arizona was better than Kansas City. My experience in California has been even better than that.

My inelegantly put point was that even today there are places in the rural Midwest where tolerance is not a wide-spread virtue. Those places are not limited to the Midwest/Plains states, rural or urban, of course.

Nor are all people in the rural Midwest intolerant. But it does seem that there are more who are not tolerant than those who are.

Does it mean that Barrowman would have the same experience today as he had in the 1980s? Not necessarily. Does intolerance of one type of difference equate to intolerance of kilts? No. Are all Midwesterners are prejudiced against men who wear kilts? No. Does that mean that Barrowman's experience was a fluke? No.

There is a reason that people who deviate from the norm and who grow up in small rural towns are more likely than not to move away to larger metropolitan areas. The tolerance of differences seem to dramatically improve the larger the population. Those who are different vote with their feet.

But overall, it is no accident that high school principals in rural Missouri and a few other Midwestern states have been the ones fight the wearing of kilts by young men at proms. They wouldn't be fighting perceived differences were there not more people in their communities who supported their prejudice than those who did not.

Just because you had good experiences doesn't mean that those experiences can be reproduced across the entire Midwest, anymore than Barrowman's or mine can be. Perhaps your perception is more accurate than mine, but I think the evidence tips more in my direction.

There will be good pockets and bad pockets of experiences across any region. In fact, the child who was killed by his classmate in Oxnard, CA demonstrates that prejudice against perceived differences exists even in California.

I'm glad your experience has been different than mine. But just because your experience was different doesn't make Barrowman's or my experience less valid than yours.

There is room for all of our opinions and all of our experiences. I'm glad that you love the rural Midwest and enjoy living there. My experience with the Midwest was different. I doubt that we'll change each other's opinions, so let's agree to disagree agreeably.

Finally, I stand corrected, Peoria is in Northern Illinois. I accept the local rules on geographical placement.

Let's just be glad that Barrowman still wears his kilt proudly, as do I.

I really don't call a town of 150,000+ "rural" (although it can have a small-town attitude at times), but in general, SGF is pretty metropolitan for this part of the country -- we're the biggest town between St. Louis and Tulsa, Kansas City and Little Rock. And a lot of Calfornians are moving here because of the cost of living, btw.

I started wearing a kilt when I was a senior in high school, and I have seen the knowledge about traditional Highland attire increase dramatically since the early 1990s.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say, but I still think Barrowman is wrong for judging a whole geographic region because he was judged by a few people in Peoria, Illinois -- we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns after all.

I suppose a lot of my thoughts in this thread come from a good dose of what Meridith Willson called "Iowa-contrary"

Regards,

Todd

[davedove]

I'll admit that I wasn't wearing a kilt as I grew up in Illinois, and there would be many people from my county that would never understand it. Growing up, my parents took me across a lot of the US and there were people in my town whose response to our tales would be "I don't know why anyone would want to go there."

Even those who would eventually accept a person in the kilt would still consider him the "wierd guy in the skirt," maybe even most of them. But, at the same time, if that person should fall on hard times, they are the same people who would invite him in for a meal.

I think the main point Todd was trying to make was to be careful painting too broadly with out characterizations, and I believe you believe that as well.

I'm still a country boy at heart, so to me it seems like there are a lot of people from the bigger cities who seem to be very intolerant of those from rural areas, with the people on the coasts being the worst. Your experience seems to be just the opposite, so personal perception plays into it a lot.

It's all good though. Kilt on!!!