what am I seeing here?

[DWFII]

All I have to say is, "The Wiz strikes again."

Thanks, DWFII, for bringing this up. I've never seen a rolled selvage before, and I would have been quite P.O.'ed had I gotten one.

And a special thanks to the Wiz for sharing his expertise dans photos. You have educated us all once again, and I personally appreciate it more than you can know.

What a great site!

Well, I should have posted it to the forum sooner. When I got the kilt it seemed for all the world as if someone had tried to hem and baste the edge and in fact there was a short section along the side that was still hemmed.

Heck, I didn't know what I was looking at...babe in the woods and all that...but the wedding was fast upon me and so I immediately emailed the company I rented it from as a precaution. I have dealt in computer parts over the internet and all sorts of leather goods in my thirty-five years and I didn't want to be held responsible.

The company generously sent out another kilt and lo and behold it had the same problem (although not quite as severe). That's when I took the photos and posted them here.

I spoke with the warehouse--Scotland Yard (the real source for the rental company)-- this morning and told them my sad story. They have assured me that there was never going to be an additional rental fee (which relieved my mind considerably). No matter how you cut it, that's going the extra mile.

I might add that one of the main purposes of posting this here is to inform other folks, so that they don't make the same mistake.

And I want to thank everyone for all the very insightful and informative comments.

Looking back on it now, all I can say is that "we are all born ignorant, but stupid is a choice." I plead ignorance but with these posts hope to avoid compounding the error.

[berserkbishop]

I was a little confounded when my grandmother sent me my kilt and the wool from Marton Mills the turned selvage. My other kilts have the older tucked in selvage and that is what I was used to seeing. I felt kind of stupid when I showed this to Wally in KC, but he assured me it was normal and common. Its only stupid if you dont ask and remain ignorant!

BB

[turpin]

.... and in fact there was a short section along the side that was still hemmed.

Typically the first pleat (left side) has a bit of a tuck-up hem to prevent the corner of the pleat from peeking out from under the aprons and messing up the uniform line. I think this is also done with the right-hand corner of the under apron.

[Barb T]

Typically the first pleat (left side) has a bit of a tuck-up hem to prevent the corner of the pleat from peeking out from under the aprons and messing up the uniform line. I think this is also done with the right-hand corner of the under apron.

And also with about 9" of the lower edge of the underapron. If you see this, it means that your kiltmaker knows what he/she is doing!

[Pleater]

When I was in Sidmouth (England) last year - at the Folk festival where the percentage of kilts is far higher than seen everyday, I offended a man by pointing out that his kilt was made up inside out - that is with the twill line running the 'wrong' way.

His kilt was made - I think, by Hector Russel - and he declared that such a noted kilt maker would not get it wrong - but the twill line ran from left hip to right knee....

Perhaps it was one of the fabrics from the firm whch has the right side on the 'wrong' diagonal and the inside was not presentable.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I have, in the past, made kilts where the twill line ran the opposite of what is normal, because I was using cloth from a mill that was simply made with the twill line running that direction on the right (good) side of the fabric, as Barb has described.

To me, it was a fairly easy decision. Why is it customary for the twill weave in a kilt to run from the left knee up to the right hip? Because that's the way the twill will run if you make the kilt with the good face of the fabric on the outside, as it should be. No other reason, really.

So what do you do if you encounter a peice of fabric where the good face has the twill running the opposite direction? Well, in my opinion, you still make it with the good face on the outside.

Granted, much of the fabric from the better mills these days is good enough that you can hardly tell a difference between the good face and the reverse side; but that's not universally true. Sometimes you do get knots and thread ends and the like as Barb describes on the reverse side of the cloth.

To me, it's most important that the kilt be made with the good face on the outside, as intended. Even if that means that for this particular kilt the twill runs counter to what is "normal." How many of us pay attention to the direction the twill runs in our denim jeans? Why should it be that big of a deal in a kilt, really?

[The Wizard of BC]

aye Matt, I too have seen kilts from some of the most respected Scottish and N. American houses where the fabric was very evidently inside out. The Twill was not only running from Left Hip to Right Knee but the frayed edges of the turned Selvedge was on the outside.

Not only have I had to make Kilts with the Twill running the "Wrong" way to keep the good side of the fabric out but I actually ran into a piece of fabric where on on Selvedge edge the turned selvedge was on the opposite side from the other Selvedge. The frayed edges were so evident that that one kilt had to be made with the Twill lines running in one direction on one half of the Kilt and running in the other direction on the other half. Luckily we had just enough fabric to offset the join so that on the outside the change in Twill direction was in the middle of the back. It looked OK and I doubt too many people would even notice.

On a side note; All of my Poly/Cotton and 100% Cotton fabrics have the Twill lines running the opposite from Kilt Wool. Not sure why that is or which is "correct".

[Pleater]

Having slept on this, I think I have the answer, at least as to why the right side has the twill the wrong way for kilting.

For most cloths there is a difference in the warp and the weft, with the warp being the stronger, so for most patterns for 'normal' clothing the pieces are cut out along the long axis of the cloth. When worn the garments have the strong threads vertically on the body.

If that was done with the 'aberrent' tartan cloth then the twill would run the traditional way, upper right to lower left.

Kilts, however are made with the weft vertical, which rotates the direction of the twill into the mirror image.

( War[u]p runs up and down the loom and you weave from weft to wight - yes, painful, but now try to get it wrong.)

If you were to make a kilt from a twill pinstripe - where the pattern would dictate that the cloth be cut and pieced selvage to selvage then you would get the traditional slope if the cloth was woven in the modern manner.