what am I seeing here?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Today, this type of weaving is becoming the industry standard. Even the very high quality weaving mills are using this type of selvedge. Lochcarron now uses it as does much of D.C. Daglish and Strathmore.
So don't worry, it is normal.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Yes and no. What Is pictured in this cloth is fairly typical of cloth woven on a rapier loom. I find it to be most common on cloth from Fraser & Kirkbright and Lochcarron. I can specifically say that you do NOT see it on cloth from D. C. Dalgleish and House of Edgar. Strathmore I can honestly say I can't recall off the top of my head, because I don't work with their cloth all that frequently.

Basically in a typical closed kilting selvedge, each thread is wrapped back around in the weaving and the thread is only cut when you are done with that color. So in terms of the Black Watch tartan pictured, each green section of the tartan is woven with one continuous green thread. Then you switch to black, blue, etc.

With the newer rapier looms each thread is cut and then tucked back up 1/2" or so into the fabric. So you still have a closed selvedge suitable for kilting, but the the bottom 1/2" of the cloth will be a bit thicker, and in the heavy weight cloths especially, this is more noticable. The better mills, such as Lochcarron, take great care in the way the tartan is laid out so that this difference in thickness will correspond with a line in the tartan that "masks" the difference visually. I've seen cloth where this has not been done well (for instance, search the archives for some of the feedback on past runs of the X Marks tartan from Fraser & Kirkbright).

This type of selvedge is becoming more and more common in the tartan industry as older looms break down, and are being replaced with rapier looms.

House of Edgar recently invested a lot of capital (I imagine) in new, custom designed looms for their facilities so that they could continue to produce tartan cloth with a traditional clean kilting selvedge. Dalgleish, as far as I know, still uses very old looms, which is why you don't see this in their selvedge, either.

And as a final note, one side of the fabric will typically be "cleaner" than the other in terms of how the type of selvedge looks. It is important that the kiltmaker use the good face of the cloth for the outside of the kilt. I would guess that the picture in the first post is the "bad" side of the fabric, so hopefully this was on the inside of the kilt.

M

[M. A. C. Newsome]

As an illustration, this image is of the selvedge of Lochcarron's 16 oz Strome, the wrong side of the fabric:


This is the same cloth, the good face of the fabric:


Not too much noticiable difference in the pictures. The difference is only slightly more noticable in real life. Truth be told, in my experience some lengths of fabric I get are better than others in this regard. Notice, too, how they made sure that the tucked threads ended exactly where the green and black meet in the tartan, which creates a cleaner visual line.

And for comparison, here is a more traditional closed selvedge, on cloth from D. C. Dalgleish:

[McFarkus]

Thanks, Matt - that clarified this for me.

[starbkjrus]

Thanks, Matt - that clarified this for me.

It did? I can't tell the difference so I guess I'll just trust the kiltmakers.

[thescot]

All I have to say is, "The Wiz strikes again."

Thanks, DWFII, for bringing this up. I've never seen a rolled selvage before, and I would have been quite P.O.'ed had I gotten one.

And a special thanks to the Wiz for sharing his expertise dans photos. You have educated us all once again, and I personally appreciate it more than you can know.

What a great site!

[James MacMillan]

The knowledge base on this board continues to ever amaze and gratify me.

Major kudos to Matt and Steve.

Thanks guys for passing along your hard earned experience!

- - - -

[thescot]

The knowledge base on this board continues to ever amaze and gratify me.

Major kudos to Matt and Steve.. . .

Sorry, I should have mentioned Matt as well, but I responded before I got to his entry. Like Mac, this place is just amazing and guys like Matt and Steve make it worth hanging around.

[DWFII]

All I have to say is, "The Wiz strikes again."

Thanks, DWFII, for bringing this up. I've never seen a rolled selvage before, and I would have been quite P.O.'ed had I gotten one.

And a special thanks to the Wiz for sharing his expertise dans photos. You have educated us all once again, and I personally appreciate it more than you can know.

What a great site!

Well, I should have posted it to the forum sooner. When I got the kilt it seemed for all the world as if someone had tried to hem and baste the edge and in fact there was a short section along the side that was still hemmed.

Heck, I didn't know what I was looking at...babe in the woods and all that...but the wedding was fast upon me and so I immediately emailed the company I rented it from as a precaution. I have dealt in computer parts over the internet and all sorts of leather goods in my thirty-five years and I didn't want to be held responsible.

The company generously sent out another kilt and lo and behold it had the same problem (although not quite as severe). That's when I took the photos and posted them here.

I spoke with the warehouse--Scotland Yard (the real source for the rental company)-- this morning and told them my sad story. They have assured me that there was never going to be an additional rental fee (which relieved my mind considerably). No matter how you cut it, that's going the extra mile.

I might add that one of the main purposes of posting this here is to inform other folks, so that they don't make the same mistake.

And I want to thank everyone for all the very insightful and informative comments.

Looking back on it now, all I can say is that "we are all born ignorant, but stupid is a choice." I plead ignorance but with these posts hope to avoid compounding the error.

[berserkbishop]

I was a little confounded when my grandmother sent me my kilt and the wool from Marton Mills the turned selvage. My other kilts have the older tucked in selvage and that is what I was used to seeing. I felt kind of stupid when I showed this to Wally in KC, but he assured me it was normal and common. Its only stupid if you dont ask and remain ignorant!

BB

[McFarkus]

It did? I can't tell the difference so I guess I'll just trust the kiltmakers.

In the top photo you can just see a slight fuzziness along the selvedge line where the threads are tucked in.