Bogus commercial heraldry....

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

Sorry, but I disagree. The people who are innocently purchasing "family crests" are being deceived that the arms of someone in the past who may or may not have been their relative somehow belong to them. That sure sounds like fraud to me.

Regards,

Todd

Can you prove intent to deceive?

Legally fraud is an offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them – usually, to obtain property or services unjustly. If someone is buying a coat of arms, how are they being harmed?

[macwilkin]

Can you prove intent to deceive?

Legally fraud is an offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them – usually, to obtain property or services unjustly. If someone is buying a coat of arms, how are they being harmed?

Regarding fraud: One thing to consider is that the people who work these booths/kiosks/shops are not genealogists, but minimum wage folks who aren't too different from the kid asking you if you want fries with that. The owners/operators need to know something and be good salespeople. Usually, the worker bees only know how to run the programs on the 'puter.

Ah, I wondered when the "barrack-room lawyers" would come out.

I suppose I should chalk it up to "a fool and his money are soon parted", but I have little sympathy for these businesses. Yes, it may not fit the legal definition of fraud, but to the heraldry community, it is fraud nonetheless, because someone is being duped into buying arms that are not theirs. I suppose it's a bit like the online places selling term papers to students; whilst it may not be illegal in the eyes of the law, but does that really justify it?

Regards,

Todd

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

I am not barrack room lawyer. I have a degree from the University of Exeter and have been admitted to the Bar for nearly 20 years.

Ah, I wondered when the "barrack-room lawyers" would come out.

I suppose I should chalk it up to "a fool and his money are soon parted", but I have little sympathy for these businesses. Yes, it may not fit the legal definition of fraud, but to the heraldry community, it is fraud nonetheless, because someone is being duped into buying arms that are not theirs. I suppose it's a bit like the online places selling term papers to students; whilst it may not be illegal in the eyes of the law, but does that really justify it?

Regards,

Todd

[Finn]

Regarding fraud: One thing to consider is that the people who work these booths/kiosks/shops are not genealogists, but minimum wage folks who aren't too different from the kid asking you if you want fries with that. The owners/operators need to know something and be good salespeople. Usually, the worker bees only know how to run the programs on the 'puter.

[O'Neille]

Are the "legitimate sources" any less "commercial". Most of what is required is a "domicile" and a direct male line of descent. Once that is established it's a matter of paying up the money. And by golly, you've just bought yourself a COA. Or for twice the money you can get a new one.

Historically, 1483 is the magic year for the College of Arms. 1318 inception and 1672 official records for the Court of the Lord Lyon. Finally, the Chief Herald of Ireland in Dublin (a division of the National Library) since 1552. You will find many examples of COAs predating these by hundreds of years. I guess you just took your chances before it all became civilized.

[auld argonian]

The "Your Family Crest" businesses have been around for a very long time. I remember seeing ads for them when I was a kid...think the late 1950's. I ran to my dad and said, "Look...we can get out family coat of arms!" and my dad said, "That's a scam...they just make them up...just get out your crayons and you draw one...it'll be as legitimate a anything that these guys will send you."

And so I did...and I started drawing it at the tops of all of my papers that I turned in at school...until the nuns made me stop it because I was obviously being a wise guy.

But I've still seen those adverts through the years and I think that it says a lot about Americans that they have persisted...they obviously seem to get enough business to keep going. I think that it's just an insecurity that we have about being the mixed bag that we are...we feel that we have to have some legitimate roots to point to to be whole somehow and having someone find our "family crest" validates us. I've often wondered if our friends in Australia have the same feelings but I've always had the idea that Canadians had more of a handle on things and didn't feel the need the same way the folks in the USA did.

Anyway, some member of my family did get the "coat of arms" and it was rather obvious that it was pretty much a generic one. The real one granted to my forebearer, Auld William, has surfaced and I wish that I had some kind of legitimate claim to it...not because I need an identity but just because it is so damn cool. If I was going to become a superhero, I'd use it as a basis for the spandex costume. I'd love to just get some patches made with it embroidered on them and pass them out at the next family reunion...sort of wear them like a baseball team wears a retired players number on the jersey as an homage.

Best

AA

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

The real one granted to my forebearer, Auld William, has surfaced and I wish that I had some kind of legitimate claim to it...not because I need an identity but just because it is so damn cool. If I was going to become a superhero, I'd use it as a basis for the spandex costume. I'd love to just get some patches made with it embroidered on them and pass them out at the next family reunion...sort of wear them like a baseball team wears a retired players number on the jersey as an homage.

Best

AA

Why not use it anyway? I mean, he was an ancestor. You could at least have a copy of it lying about.

[Sketraw]

This is an interesting thread and it is good to see such debate.

I am no lawyer but to me my feelings are the same as Todd, it is 'fraud' and if not fraud, identity theft. If someone was using my COA as there own they are for that matter stealing my identity which in turn could be used for fraudulent purposes. There is nothing wrong with displaying another's COA as long as you make reference to who's arms they are and not try and suggest that they are your arms or your families COA.

Where many people go wrong is displaying there Chiefs COA on a plaque or such like, nothing wrong in displaying the arms, however the questionable bit is the name on the plaque or the like. Simple putting MacDonald underneath or above is not enough it should be clearly marked by either Chief of Clan Macdonald or MacDonald of MacDonald or MacDonald of that ilk etc. That way you are making it clear who's arms they belong to.

I don't want to go over old ground but the 'Bucket Shops' are just out to make a fast buck out of people ignorance on the use and ownership of COA and are well aware of what they are doing (although those employed by them may not). One recent example was a member of the Clan Duncan Society prior to joining had the arms of the Earl of Camperdown tattooed on his back as he was told by one of these bucket shops that this was his Duncan 'family' COA.... to me they are extracting money from people fraudulently by selling products that are not there own or under licence to them.

[JerseyLawyer]

The quick and dirty legal definition of fraud is that someone tried to take you, you got took, and you lost money as a result. Here, you're getting pretty much what they purport to be selling - a coat of arms related to your family name, a history of that name, and a pretty picture. Lots of business foist off products on the ignorant, and that's not illegal actionable, necessarily.

I think the question is more whether you're getting value for your money. You buy a $29.99 bit of information from a bucket shop, and you get exactly what you pay for. They look up the name in a big book and spit out what's in the computer, with not attention to whether you have any relationship to that family beyond a similar surname. Getting someone to do real research into your family would probably cost on the order of 100 times more than that, and take time and effort that would keep them from selling chachky in the mall.

Anyway... I think it's another case of buyer beware. We just have to do our bit to educate people.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Are the "legitimate sources" any less "commercial". Most of what is required is a "domicile" and a direct male line of descent. Once that is established it's a matter of paying up the money. And by golly, you've just bought yourself a COA. Or for twice the money you can get a new one.

While I cannot speak for the practices of the College of Arms as they are a private body, I should point out that in Scotland and Ireland the statutory fees are set by the government, and merely cover the actual costs of creating and recording the Letters Patent. Whilst it may seem smug to suggest that a coat of arms is "bought", that is far from the truth. Both the Lyon Court and the Office of Arms in Dublin have fairly rigorous standards for both the granting of "de novo" arms and the confirmation of existing arms by right of descent.

Historically, 1483 is the magic year for the College of Arms. 1318 inception and 1672 official records for the Court of the Lord Lyon. Finally, the Chief Herald of Ireland in Dublin (a division of the National Library) since 1552. You will find many examples of COAs predating these by hundreds of years. I guess you just took your chances before it all became civilized.

As far as the antiquity of the Irish Office of Arms is concerned, the first Ireland King of Arms was John Chandos (appointed by Richard II in 1392) followed by John Othelake who succeeded to the office in 1393. The next Herald of note was John Kitely, whose date of appointment is unknown, but who was in office in 1420. Heralds continued to be appointed for the next 50 years at least, until the office seems to have lapsed in 1487, being revived with the appointment of Bartholomew Butler as Ulster King of Arms by Edward VI in February of 1552. In 1943 the office and authority of Ulster King of Arms was handed over to the Irish Government who have continued the work of devising and granting arms throughout the whole of Ireland, and to the Irish diaspora abroad.