Are kilts only for the rich? rant.

[macwilkin]

I understand your point of view, but I don't see the forum as you do. It seems to me that for every "kilt snob" who seems to look down on the less-expensive and contemporary kilts, there is another who feels that the traditionalists are old-fashioned and a slave to the "kilt rules".

I guess we all see things from our own viewpoint. It's just the way things are.

Spot on, Dave. Hector, you will see "reverse discrimination" on this forum. I've been a member for 4 years now, and trust me, it does happen. As Dave mentioned, traditionalists tend to take a bit of a bashing now and again because of our viewpoints on "proper" dress and our devotion to more traditional materials, etc.

What you wear is your business. My frugal grandmother raised me that we're "all Jock Tamson's bairns". But it goes both ways. I think folks sometimes make the assumption that all traditionalists are "kilt snobs" simply by how we dress, and isn't that a bit hypocritical? In my life, some of the most intolerant people I have ever met were the ones who claimed to be tolerant.

Just something to think about. I understand your frustration, but like your comment about "passive-aggressive" snipes, couldn't this thread be construed as one against those of us who choose to purchase the more expensive kilts?

And for the record, like Bradley, I have no problem with the PV and casual kilts. Maybe someday I will even own one.

Regards,

Todd

[LANCER1562]

As I tell my children, "What you want and what you will get, are two different things". I had wanted a "tank" in my clan tartan for years but couldn't afford it. When my mom died and left me a rather large sum of money, I did just what she told me to do. I used it for something I really wanted. I now have the "tank" I always wanted as well as a couple of contemporaries for knocking about so as not to ruin a $600 wool kilt. I wish I had known about Stillwater, Utilikilt, Frugal Corner, etc. years ago. I could have started wearing kilts that much sooner.

[Howard Clark]

I used to be very active on a sword related bulletin board on the internet. This very same debate took place (and presumably still does, I wouldn't know at this point). Those who took the position that traditional craft methods to make, polish, and mount Japanese style swords (regardless of where the work was being done, geographically, or by whom, ethnically) were regarded as elitist snobs, and accused of looking down on everything that was not done that way. In reality, what was done was simply to point out the differences, and they are many.

This discussion about kilts is 'exactly' the same discussion. I cannot remember where I got this from, but it fits here, now.

"Offense is not given. Offense is taken."

I believe that it takes a good deal of confidence to go forth dressed in a kilt in modern america. A resulting outgrowth of that confidence, which increases with more public kilt wearing, is increased patience, tolerance, and maturity. For myself, the reactions I get are sometimes influenced by the attitude I project while I am out.

I own a bunch of different kilts. I started out with an acrylic "designed in Scotland", bought them on clearance, off e-bay as a two for one deal. Wore them enough to decide I liked it, and could spend a little more money.

I was SHOCKED at how much a "real" kilt cost.

I got myself some fabric, and proceeded to make about a dozen kilt like objects. Some of them are so bad I won't even wear them around the house or to work in the blacksmith shop.

"Wow, this is tougher than I thought", I said to myself. Then I found this place.

I read, and read, and listened, and asked a few questions, and learned a LOT.

Ordered a kilt from Matt Newsome. In the meantime had decided to buy some real kilting cloth (e-bay again). By the time I got the fabric, my Matt Newsome box pleat had arrived. I concluded then that I was not worthy of the tartan I had purchased, based on what I had done, compared to what Matt does. So I sent the fabric to him and asked him to make a kilt from it (which he did, most excellently).

So now, I have five hand sewn kilts. I wear them in public as often as I can. In the shop, I wear my "kilt like objects" that I made myself. Wool works well in the blacksmith shop too, so long as you can get over the idea of the cost of the material. It wears well, and is fire retardant by it's very own nature, which is definitely a plus. I should note that I made "extra" knives and stuff to pay for the kilts, the $ did not come out of the household budget. I also realize that not everyone may be able to do that. I have been without funds too many times myself.

All of them have their place. Any are better than none. Get what you want, what you can afford, and wear it with confidence. And be happy, the world needs more smiles in it.

The traditional kilt maker may be worried that demand will drop with all the inexpensive competition, but for swords, that has not proven to be true. More inexpensive ones got more people into it that would not have been otherwise. As they learned more, they wanted more than what they had. So they got a better one. And so it goes.

The more men who buy kilts of any kind the better. And the greater demand will lead to an increase in quality/features vs. price, because that is the way markets work. The off the peg kilts will keep getting better all the time, and with more choices all the time. This is already happening, right now. It is something to celebrate, not to complain about. And there will still be those who are willing to pay the bill for hand sewn, wool tartan, traditional kilts, because they are what all the others aspire to be, or were inspired by.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I always find threads of this nature interesting, if not at times a bit frustrating. As someone who is involved with kilts on all levels (and by that I mean as a maker, as a retailer of other makers, and as a regular wearer), it is always good for me to hear how people perceive the cost of kilts and Highland dress accessories.

Let's face it. All of us are at different economic levels. Some of us can afford a $600 kilt. Others have to scrimp and save for a $100 kilt. That's just the facts of life. And we can complain about how kilts are so expensive, but there have been various threads already on this forum about why this is so, and again -- that's just the way things are.

I might add that it's not just in the kilted world that one finds such a range of prices. I can go to Wal*Mart and get a pair of $20 blue jeans. I can also go to a posh downtown clothing store and pay ten times that amount for a pair of blue jeans. I don't own a pair of $200 jeans. But other people do. Fine.

One other factor in this equation is the "what is this worth to me?" question. I know people who earn quadruple what I do and yet a single kilt is too expensive for them, because they cannot justify the cost, personally. It's just not worth it to them. I also know people who earn less than I do who scrimp and save for a beautiful kilted formal outfit so that they can attend their annual Clan banquet in style -- because for them it is worth it. Everyone will have their own perspective on this point.

So I don't mind people who like the high-end fully tailored woolen kilts exclusively. And I don't mind the people who purchase the lower-end, off-the-peg, inexpensive kilts, either.

What I do mind are those who want everyone to believe that the less-expensive kilts are every bit as good as the more-expensive kilts. They are not. The old adage is true -- you get what you pay for. I wouldn't expect my $20 jeans to be the same quality as a pair of $200 jeans. To suggest so implies that the higher cost item is a rip off.

And maybe the $200 jeans are a rip-off. I don't know; I don't know jeans. But I do know kilts. And I can attest to the fact that most of your high-end kilts are sold at a price just above wholesale cost. There is a very slim profit margin. While most of your lower-end kilts are sold at a much, much higher profit margin.

In other words, your $500 kilt is problably worth $500. Your $80 kilt may really only be worth $20. One thing I do (and this is me speaking personally) is to look at an inexpensive kilt and try to evaluate it as if it were a lady's skirt. I mean the basic garment is a pleated, wrap around skirt. So I ask myself if this were in a department store being sold as a skirt, with the same material and construction details, would it demand the price it is being sold at as a kilt? My personal opinion is often no, it would not. There are a lot of cheap kilts out there that are being sold at higher prices than they are actually worth simply because they are being marketed as kilts, and people have the perception that kilts are expensive -- therefore a higher price is justified. So that kilt that may only be worth $20 is being sold for $80 or $100 because people will pay it.

Again, it is a question of perceived value. To me, $100 may be too expensive for a particular kilt, because I can look at it and evaluate it and judge it not to be worth $100. Whereas a $400 may not be too expensive because I know it is really worth the higher price.

Another poster on this thread boasted of having 26 kilts because he could take advantage of the less expensive options. If we assume that all of these were at the price point of a Stillwater standard, this would be about $2080 worth of kilts. For that price you could also have four or five really nice made-to-measure woolen kilts. And for most people, four or five quality kilts is more than enough. In fact, for most people, one or two kilts is plenty.

But it is a question of perceived value. Where do you want to spend your money? For some people that may be a lot of inexpensive kilts. For others, that may be only a few more high-end kilts. That's fine. We all know our budgets, we all know what we can afford, and we all know what our personal criteria for quality is.

Just my two cents!

[george7]

I was rich, then I bought a kilt.

[Tommy Hunt]

I'm new to all this and I haven't purchased my first kilt yet but I probably wouldn't buy anything but a really good quality kilt and certainly not anything but good quality wool. That's just me. I would never never look down on anyone who chose to wear a less expensive or a non wool kilt through personal preference or budget considerations. I just wouldn't do it. We take some pride in our personal preferences and our ability to purchase well made outfits to be sure but basically it's not the money we have or our personal tastes we're celebrating. Let's all feel comfortable in our own skins and our own kilts and show pride in our Scottish heritage. That's what we're really celebrating.

[JakobT]

If we were that concerned with what other people thought of us, we wouldn't be wearing kilts anyway. So wear your kilt well, and with pride, no matter what you paid for it.

[george7]

Not all of us who have expensive kilts spent 'retail' by the way. I spent full retail on my first tank, but since then have picked up on second-hand kilts. Be a frugal scot... ask around and look around.

[george7]

...try the "Wanted" thread. Name your item and specify how much you want to pay. There is bound to be somebody who needs x amount of money and has x-item on xmarksthescot.

[DWFII]

Sometimes these kinds of discussions become an interesting exercise for the brain...

Once upon a time, long ago, in a Galaxy far, far away, one of our ancestors faced a dilemma...trapped on a cliff, with a raging river below and a stalking sabertooth coming at him, he could hide behind a rock, climb a tree, or jump into the river.

The Creator endowed our species with a critical faculty that allows us to make judgments...it was a survival trait. It is counter-intuitive if not downright dangerous to ignore that faculty in a misguided effort to level and homogenize everything down to universal palatability. There is such a thing as "good, better, best"...as evidenced by the choices confronting that ancient forebearer.

And it is natural and evolutionarily profitable for an individual (and by extension the species, as well), to refine that ability so as to make ever more sophisticated judgments and choices.

Even relatively expensive Blended Scotch is not the same as a Single Malt such as Laphroig 15. Unless your sole purpose is some degree of inebriation. They don't taste the same. They don't linger the same and of course they don't cost the same. Life is full of such examples--from cheese to wine to beer to musical instruments to tools.

I am a traditionalist and philosophically probably an elitist if only because I do recognize a hierarchy of excellence--again "good, better, best." But I am not a kilt snob. And if there were a PV that had the same (or similar) hand, weight, swing and ability to hold the pleat as wool, I would certainly buy a PV kilt. They are, after all, washable and I tend to do what needs to be done no matter what I am wearing.

But I suspect that if such an animal existed, eight yard kilts made from this new, revolutionary, true-16-ounce PV would cost just as much as kilts made from wool.