Interesting email from an Irish fellow about Irish kilts.

[slohairt]

Only two or three of them correspond to Scottish clans, and even with those you have to remember that the highlanders came to Scotland from Ireland, not the other way around, so even where the tartan was originally adopted in Scotland the clan itself invariably existed in Ireland first and then spread to Scotland, not vicea versa. That is a common mistake when people think they recognise 'Scottish' names in Ireland, i.e. if they are highland clan names then they are in fact Irish names that occur in Scotland.

OTOH, lowland Scots and a even a few highlanders did settle in the North of Ireland many centuries later, so it can be hard to unscramble, but many people get it wrong because they have heard of that migration and not the earlier one in the other direction.

This brings up an interesting questions. If you find out from genealogical research that you are descended from a Scots clan name solely via Ireland and have no Scots blood can you still wear the tartan? I'd say yes, if it's the same clan, but not everyone would agree.

Irish names occurring in Scotland actually come from two sources:

1) As the bulk of Gaelic surnames are patronymics, it is highly probable that two unrelated surnames would appear in both countries at the same time. Though based on the same male personal name they are, in fact, not connected. The Scotii stopped migrating to Scotland long before the 'surname period' in Ireland occurred. (Reputed to be in the reign of Brian Boru.)

2) Irish emigration to Scotland occurring during the middle of the 19th Century. By the 1850s, a large bulk of the working-class in Glasgow were Irish. Their descendants are still numerous today.

Scottish surnames occurring In Ireland:

Lowland Scots (and some English) did migrate en masse to Ulster commencing in the 17th Century. Indeed, many names of non-Irish origin can be found all over Ireland. However, a source of Scottish (Gaelic) surnames in the North is often overlooked: Gallowglass. Many Highlanders fought for the Uí Néill and the Uí Dónaill. These soldiers-of-fortune were often granted land as payment. These individuals/families were easily assimilated into the native Irish population.

[beloitpiper]

As somebody who has LIVED in Ireland and worn kilts over there, I can say that they are not laughed at. Granted, I didn't go around telling everybody my kilt was Irish, but a large majority had no problem with an American wearing a kilt. The best thing, I've found, is to just say "I'm a kilt enthusiast," which gives them no right to bash you. You're not claiming an identity, you just love to wear kilts!

But seriously, where did this email come from?!? Who does he think he is, just emailing you about what he thinks of Irish Americans? He's a jerk, so who cares what he thinks?

Interestingly enough though, of the 40 million people claiming Irish descent, 27 million of those are Ulster Scots (Scots-Irish)...

[O'Callaghan]

Irish names occurring in Scotland actually come from two sources: 1) As the bulk of Gaelic surnames are patronymics, it is highly probable that two unrelated surnames would appear in both countries at the same time. Though based on the same male personal name they are, in fact, not connected. The Scotii stopped migrating to Scotland long before the 'surname period' in Ireland occurred. (Reputed to be in the reign of Brian Boru.) 2) Irish emigration to Scotland occurring during the middle of the 19th Century. By the 1850s, a large bulk of the working-class in Glasgow were Irish. Their descendants are still numerous today. Scottish surnames occurring In Ireland: Lowland Scots (and some English) did migrate en masse to Ulster commencing in the 17th Century. Indeed, many names of non-Irish origin can be found all over Ireland. However, a source of Scottish (Gaelic) surnames in the North is often overlooked: Gallowglass. Many Highlanders fought for the Uí Néill and the Uí Dónaill. These soldiers-of-fortune were often granted land as payment. These individuals/families were easily assimilated into the native Irish population.

Whilst I agree that the Scotii emigrated to Scotland before surnames as such, I don't know that it was before clan names. That is, someone may have been known by only one name, with no separate first and last names, but he was a member of a particular clan. Of course, the members of the clan were not all genetically related though. IOW, even if it's the same clan in both Ireland and Scotland, and I think in some cases you can show that it is, it needn't imply actual descent, or at least not for the whole clan, although probably for the chiefs. When surnames came into use in Ireland, most would have taken the name of their clan, whatever genetic relationship existed to the founder of the clan, including none atall, and most wouldn't have actually known their family tree. Mainly just the chiefs would have been able to trace their lineage back. Of course, this means that the likelihood is that I'm not descended from the original Callaghan atall, but neither do I know that I'm not. It is interesting that in Scotland you have so many surnames that are septs of clans. I think this shows, to the extent that it is genuine and not invented, that clans continued to be important in Scotland long after the adoption of surnames, which is apparently not the case in Ireland. In both places you had many unrelated clan members, but in Ireland they tended to wind up with the clan surname. Point taken, though.

[Captain Karrot]

This thread must have been recently revived, because I don't remember seeing it before.

I know live in Ohio...and wear kilts. I wonder what part of Ohio this individual lives in, and what pub...curious if I may have run across him a time or two...

[CelticMedic]

I did a search...turns out there is only 1 member of Team Ireland competeing in the Olympics this time around...and he's not a native Irishman, he became a citizen based on his Irish heritige, Allistar Ian Cragg
From his official Olympic Bio: Born June 13, 1980. ... Making his second appearance in the Olympics. ... At the 2004 Olympics in Athens, ran the 5,000 meters in 13 minutes, 43.06 seconds for a 12th-place finish. ... It was the top time among Europeans in that event. ... Broke an Irish record in the 10,000m, finishing in 27:39.55 in Stanford, Calif. on April 29, 2007. ... Finished fourth in the 3,000 at the 2006 World Indoor Championships in Moscow with a time of 7:46.43. ... Took gold in that event at the 2005 European Indoor Championship in Madrid with a time of 7:46.32. ... After representing South Africa as a junior athlete, was able to become an Irish citizen in 2003 because of his ancestry.
Wonder how our young friend feels about being represented by a former "Plastic Paddy"

[O'Callaghan]

I did a search...turns out there is only 1 member of Team Ireland competeing in the Olympics this time around...and he's not a native Irishman, he became a citizen based on his Irish heritige, Allistar Ian Cragg (bio snipped) Wonder how our young friend feels about being represented by a former "Plastic Paddy"

If the young e-mailer is from Northern Ireland, then he is from the UK, which is represented by Team GB, not Team Ireland. Either way, I don't suppose he's thrilled by being represented by someone he would see as South African.

OTOH, it is more complicated than that, as so many things in life are. You can claim either British or Irish citizenship from links to Northern Ireland, but not both. That doesn't stop someone from claiming both if at least one or the other is not derived from NI, though. FWIW, I have no connection with NI. I am from England and my Irish heritage is from the Republic. You can also vote in all British elections as an Irish citizen, but not as an absentee voter. This means that republicans who have lived in the North for generations can choose to have Irish and not British citizenship without even losing the right to vote.

As for the athlete, Ireland has, amongst other ways of claiming Irish citizenship, a way of extending the claim an indefinite number of generations, the only catch being that the chain cannot be broken. I think you get two generations as of right, and then it continues only if you make the claim, and you are known as an Irish citizen 'by association' I think it's called. This is quite odd, in that I don't know any other nation that has such a rule. So, for example, because as far as we know my grandfather failed to assert Irish citizenship, all generations past him are now SOL. If he had made such a claim while he was alive, and I wish he had, we could have kept Irish citizenship going indefinitely, until somebody else failed to claim it and broke the chain.

[beloitpiper]

Whilst I agree that the Scotii emigrated to Scotland before surnames as such, I don't know that it was before clan names. That is, someone may have been known by only one name, with no separate first and last names, but he was a member of a particular clan. Of course, the members of the clan were not all genetically related though. IOW, even if it's the same clan in both Ireland and Scotland, and I think in some cases you can show that it is, it needn't imply actual descent, or at least not for the whole clan, although probably for the chiefs. When surnames came into use in Ireland, most would have taken the name of their clan, whatever genetic relationship existed to the founder of the clan, including none atall, and most wouldn't have actually known their family tree. Mainly just the chiefs would have been able to trace their lineage back. Of course, this means that the likelihood is that I'm not descended from the original Callaghan atall, but neither do I know that I'm not. It is interesting that in Scotland you have so many surnames that are septs of clans. I think this shows, to the extent that it is genuine and not invented, that clans continued to be important in Scotland long after the adoption of surnames, which is apparently not the case in Ireland. In both places you had many unrelated clan members, but in Ireland they tended to wind up with the clan surname. Point taken, though.

Wow, that's a dense paragraph...anyway, the Irish didn't have clans like the Scottish did. And when surnames came into effect, they weren't taken from the "clan", it was simply their ancestors. Hence "Mac" meaning "Son of" and "O" meaning "Ancestor/grandson of", etc. I can only think of a few true names that are historically Scottish and Irish, Kennedy being the most prominent.

[O'Callaghan]

Wow, that's a dense paragraph...anyway, the Irish didn't have clans like the Scottish did. And when surnames came into effect, they weren't taken from the "clan", it was simply their ancestors. Hence "Mac" meaning "Son of" and "O" meaning "Ancestor/grandson of", etc. I can only think of a few true names that are historically Scottish and Irish, Kennedy being the most prominent.

I don't think that's exactly true. Callaghan has both a hereditary clan chief recognised by the Irish Record Office (although that body no longer does this, because a chief of another Irish clan turned out to be a fraud) and also a clan society in Co. Cork (that may or may not still be active), albeit there's a major disconnect between the two. Traditionally, all Callahans, Callaghans and O'Callaghans are supposed to be descended from Callaghan (or in gaelic Ceallachan) of Cashel, who was king of Munster in the 10th century, which I understand is before surnames. He can be found in a chart called the lineage of the Eoganacht (which was a tribe). Google it, it's online.

Ancient lineages like this have to be taken with a pinch of salt, but it shows him below the first McCarthy and the first Kennedy and above the first McGrath (Maccraith) and the first Sullivan (Sulliban), for example. None of these men had surnames, and if they had done they would all have had the same one, because they were all directly descended from eachother if we believe the lineage. However, traditionally each of these surnames originated with those particular individuals, first as a clan and only later passed on in the way a surname would be today.

The barons Lismore trace themselves back to the first Callaghan, and even if that lineage is perhaps questionable they certainly bore the surname before elevation to the peerage.

The Irish clans each had their own traditional lands, although in the case of the Callaghans they were forcibly relocated twice by the English.

All the above can be found if you Google it. That doesn't mean that the traditions are always accurate, or that the lineages are always accurate, or that everyone of the name is of the blood. It just means that the traditions are what they are, and I'm not making this stuff up, LOL!

[SteveB]

It is indeed nice to have an old thread brought to life. I am an American, with a diverse ancestry. I was born in Kildare, Kildare, Eire. Both of my parents were born in the U.S.A. Aside from a birth certificate from the Republic of Ireland that lists my parents as foreign, my connection to the Emerald Isle is weak at best. My mother's grandparents are of County Down, Northern Ireland (U.K.) She visited them as they were very aged, whilst I was in process. I came into the world a month early and on the other side of the pond. I knew nothing of all this until later in life when I had to get out my birth certificate to enlist in the U.S. Air Force. In 2000 I visited Ireland to find the place of my birth. I had no problem entering the country as I am also an Irish citizen by birth. I have no real Irish culture. I am plenty proud to be a dual citizen. It is useful when I have been called a plastic paddy, to whip out my plastic encased Irish I.D. I am of Clan MacNeil, the oldest and baddest Irish pirates that ever were.

[SteveB]

I would love to find this gentleman in a pub in Ohio, just to show him what this plastic paddy really looks like.