Kilt Do's and Don'ts

[DWFII]

A comment..apropos of nothing specifically but maybe worth considering...

For non-traditional kilt wearers "Do's and Don'ts'' are almost meaningless. That's not too surprising when you consider that a "non-traditional" kilt can be anything from a mid-thigh scrap of tartan to a wrap of leather billets.

If you wear the kilt to honour traditions and ancestry and so forth, then by its very nature you're going to be constrained by "rules" and expectations. Most who wear the kilt for these reasons, willingly...even joyously...embrace those traditions and those rules.

As a thread, "Do's and Don'ts" only makes sense if there is a standard of "appropriateness" that is recognized and accepted as the founding principle.

[ThistleDown]

A comment..apropos of nothing specifically but maybe worth considering...

For non-traditional kilt wearers "Do's and Don'ts'' are almost meaningless. That's not too surprising when you consider that a "non-traditional" kilt can be anything from a mid-thigh scrap of tartan to a wrap of leather billets.

If you wear the kilt to honour traditions and ancestry and so forth, then by its very nature you're going to be constrained by "rules" and expectations. Most who wear the kilt for these reasons, willingly...even joyously...embrace those traditions and those rules.

As a thread, "Do's and Don'ts" only makes sense if there is a standard of "appropriateness" that is recognized and accepted as the founding principle.

"Appropriate" being different from "rules"? Therefore allowing for "fashion"? For example, it was formerly fashionable in Scotland to wear a straight black tie with a PC in an approporiate daytime setting (as a morning suit, in other words). Today the wearing of a PC during the day is out of fashion.

Second example. It was formerly fashionable in Scotland (i.e., in an otherwise traditional context) to wear a cravat as a less fussy alternative to the jabot when a Montrose jacket was worn during the day. Again as a morning suit. Today an ornate version in colours to match the kilt is being worn in place of a bow tie with a wing-collared shirt and the PC in the evening. That's fashion.

Another? Buckled shoes with evening wear were formerly fashionable in Scotland. Today they are out of fashion.

So is "dos and don'ts" really personal "likes and dislikes"?

[Highland Logan]

"Appropriate" being different from "rules"? Therefore allowing for "fashion"? For example, it was formerly fashionable in Scotland to wear a straight black tie with a PC in an approporiate daytime setting (as a morning suit, in other words). Today the wearing of a PC during the day is out of fashion.

Second example. It was formerly fashionable in Scotland (i.e., in an otherwise traditional context) to wear a cravat as a less fussy alternative to the jabot when a Montrose jacket was worn during the day. Again as a morning suit. Today an ornate version in colours to match the kilt is being worn in place of a bow tie with a wing-collared shirt and the PC in the evening. That's fashion.

Another? Buckled shoes with evening wear were formerly fashionable in Scotland. Today they are out of fashion.

So is "dos and don'ts" really personal "likes and dislikes"?

ThistleDown you have made DWFII's point for him. What you discribe are trends, not traditional or proper dress protocol. It was a trend to wear tennis shoes with a tux in the 80's.. it was not proper evening attire, it was a trend and it went away. There are all kinds of reasons why people dress poorly; they didn't know any better (ignorance can be an excuse for only so long; educate yourself and ask questions), they don't have the money (if you can't dess to go to a formal ball, maybe you shouldn't go), and the famous "I like it like this", which really boils down to a cover story for the last 2 and a possibe mix of selfish behaviour to do what ever one feels like.

Frank

[DWFII]

I think Frank, put his finger on it. My own take would be that Thistledown's characterization of what is fashionable is suspect. Or if not suspect, at least beside the point. Many would wear buckle shoes...ala the 18th century...as a matter of preference with evening wear and it would, I wager, be considered not only perfectly acceptable but even a cause for some admiration.

There is a rather famous, recent photo of Sean Connery wearing a Montrose and a Jabot. He looks as good as it gets it Scottish regalia.

I think that when one commits to honouring the traditions...and not just re-enacting or adhering to rules...I don't think it is ever wrong to look to the "founding principles."

[ThistleDown]

I think Frank, put his finger on it. My own take would be that Thistledown's characterization of what is fashionable is suspect. Or if not suspect, at least beside the point. Many would wear buckle shoes...ala the 18th century...as a matter of preference with evening wear and it would, I wager, be considered not only perfectly acceptable but even a cause for some admiration.

There is a rather famous, recent photo of Sean Connery wearing a Montrose and a Jabot. He looks as good as it gets it Scottish regalia.

I think that when one commits to honouring the traditions...and not just re-enacting or adhering to rules...I don't think it is ever wrong to look to the "founding principles."

Sorry, I guess I wasn't stating all that well enough. I was asking DWFII for clarification in my first sentence. I thought I went on to give my opinion that "tradition" and "fashion" are two entirely different things. Today it is unfashionable to wear a PC during the day, even in Scotland. But it was formerly traditional to do so. Because elsewhere in this thread we have criticised someone doing so, does that mean that it is no longer "traditional"?

Perhaps the same thing holds true with 18C buckled shoes? In Scotland they are out of fashion today and, although I've not seen them worn for years, I suspect that if they were the wearer would be thought of as "old fashioned". That may not be true in Canada or the US, of course.

So, if something is unfashionable for a period of time, does it become untraditional, as well?

I think, DWFII and Frank, we are in agreement and it's only the terms we are discussing .

[DWFII]

Not to put too fine a point on it...if I understood him correctly, Hamish recently commented that he has a pair of buckle shoes made in the style of the "Culloden era" and he wears them to formal events with alacrity.

As to the business with the PC, and whether to wear it during the day...that is undoubtedly determined by fashion and what is fashionable. Once upon a time it was fashionable, all over the Western world, to wear a jacket, w'scoat, and tie during the day... for everyone except common labourers. Today it's blue jeans and branded T-shirts--we're all walking advertisements for companies we have no holdings in and which are not universally benevolent...but that's another thread.

If a garment is worn with a certain probative deliberation and a respect for tradition...hence this thread...I don't think it is ever really "old fashioned." Only in some people's mind...maybe those who could care less about traditions?

I have worn frock coats and stand up collars in a former life and because...and mostly because...I researched the "look" and wore it with respect, I never got anything but compliments. People would go out of their way to photograph me and be photographed with me.

Maybe the impasse here is that, for myself at least, I'm just as much a rebel as those who wear non-traditional kilts, but in a different way. I am indifferent to "fashion" but I revere traditions and to some extent history. There is a freedom that comes from knowing you've "got it right" and not caring what the moguls of fashion think. Of course, you actually do have to "have it right." Again, hence this thread.

I'm a wild and crazy guy...stop me before I buy a vintage broach.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't stating all that well enough. I was asking DWFII for clarification in my first sentence. I thought I went on to give my opinion that "tradition" and "fashion" are two entirely different things. Today it is unfashionable to wear a PC during the day, even in Scotland. But it was formerly traditional to do so. Because elsewhere in this thread we have criticised someone doing so, does that mean that it is no longer "traditional"?

Perhaps the same thing holds true with 18C buckled shoes? In Scotland they are out of fashion today and, although I've not seen them worn for years, I suspect that if they were the wearer would be thought of as "old fashioned". That may not be true in Canada or the US, of course.

So, if something is unfashionable for a period of time, does it become untraditional, as well?

I think, DWFII and Frank, we are in agreement and it's only the terms we are discussing .

[ThistleDown]

Not to put too fine a point on it...if I understood him correctly, Hamish recently commented that he has a pair of buckle shoes made in the style of the "Culloden era" and he wears them to formal events with alacrity.

Could that not mean that Ham is trying on a "new" fashion? Something like his new dayglo kilt? Of course he is in England and it was Scotland I was referring to.

As to the business with the PC, and whether to wear it during the day...that is undoubtedly determined by fashion and what is fashionable.

I was just wondering why we criticise someone who wears a PC during the day when it is/was traditional to do so (in some circumstances). Certainly it is not fashionable today, but why do we equate fashion to tradition in this case and not in others?

Maybe the impasse here is that, for myself at least, I'm just as much a rebel as those who wear non-traditional kilts, but in a different way. I am indifferent to "fashion" but I revere traditions and to some extent history. But there is a freedom that comes from knowing you've "got it right" and not caring what the moguls of fashion think.

I see no impasse here. I suppose most in this forum are rebels in one way or another. I've worn a kilt pretty well daily for the last fifty years. What kind of a rebel does that make me? What I am concerned with is the confusion of fashion with tradition, just as you are, but also with the fact that traditions evolve due to fashion in different places at different times. What is thought of -- for example -- as traditional Highland dress in the US today has already altered in Scotland and is now seen as "costume".

[DWFII]

, but why do we equate fashion to tradition in this case and not in others?.

I think...upon thinking further...that "fashion" is dictated by people who, for one reason or another are seen as the "elite"--presidents and prime ministers, opera divas and rock stars...etc. .,When those people pass on, "fashion" moves on.

Whereas traditions spring not only from the common folk but from protracted usage, that because "fashions" tend to be time (or era) limited), defies time and fashion.

I really don't think the two are connected except in the most tenuous manner.

[ThistleDown]

I think...upon thinking further...that "fashion" is dictated by people who, for one reason or another are seen as the "elite"--presidents and prime ministers, opera divas and rock stars...etc. .,When those people pass on, "fashion" moves on.

I agree that, generally speaking, fashion is fleeting and passes with the fashionable. Hmmmm...of course, it became "fashionable" for non-military men to wear the PC to somewhat match (or at least compete on the same level with) their military counterparts. And the PC stuck and is now considered traditional. To support our argument, however, there's the 19C fashion of the great hairy sporran. Fortunately that one eventually passed. At least it did in Scotland; has it in North America?

Whereas traditions spring not only from the common folk but from protracted usage, that because "fashions" tend to be time (or era) limited), defies time and fashion.

Yes. As I said in an earlier post: common use and common beliefs over time. So we cannot say, until it has passed, whether a fashion will become tradition, or not, I suppose. Tradition does not lead to fashion, for sure, but I think you will agree that sometimes tradition becomes fashionable

[Monkey@Arms]

I agree that, generally speaking, fashion is fleeting and passes with the fashionable. Hmmmm...of course, it became "fashionable" for non-military men to wear the PC to somewhat match (or at least compete on the same level with) their military counterparts. And the PC stuck and is now considered traditional. To support our argument, however, there's the 19C fashion of the great hairy sporran. Fortunately that one eventually passed. At least it did in Scotland; has it in North America?

Yes. As I said in an earlier post: common use and common beliefs over time. So we cannot say, until it has passed, whether a fashion will become tradition, or not, I suppose. Tradition does not lead to fashion, for sure, but I think you will agree that sometimes tradition becomes fashionable

I would argue that it is all fashion. As you point out the big hairy sporran used to be de rigeur, to wear a simpler one would probably have been considered a "don't" in its day. Indeed the kilt as we all know, came into vogue as a result of King George IV 's visit to Scotland, and was quite unfashionable before that time, and existed as a tradition only in the Highlands.

Sure we now have expectations about how a "traditional" kilt is "traditionally" worn, such as where a kilt pin goes if one wears one, and what style of jacket goes with what, but as you have given many examples, these customs have changed with the times.

Kilt wearing evolves, some changes take, others fall by the wayside, and unless you're wearing it as a uniform, or as a re-enactor, its a clothing, not costume.

Best regards,

Jake