Ghillie brogues, yes or no?

[DWFII]

You describe yourself as a shoemaker of some 35 years and I must obviously defer to your age and experience in your craft.

But you aren't really, are you? Deferring, I mean. I never said they can't be comfortable. Besides the fact that "comfortable" is a relative term...and I did stress that a shoemaker has to fit the head before he can fit the foot...what I did say was that the buckle almost has as to lie over an area of flex. And as someone who has studied the dynamics of the foot for lo these many years, I don't see how they can be comfortable.

That said, it is a long established principle that when a person wears a good quality shoe, the bottom of the foot will create a "footbed" in the leather insole. These are as individual as snowflakes or fingerprints. Yet, I have had many people tell me, in high dudgeon, that the thirty year old vintage (and well worn), shoes they bought off of Ebay that were also two sizes too big, fit them like a glove. OK. Go for it. I'd be out on a limb to second guess anyone's headspace.

What I must not defer to, however, is your blinkered and unsupported assumption that the buckle brogues I described cannot be comfortable.

This is a characterization that borders on an unwarranted attack...as someone who has made his entire living in a 19th century Trade (and one that gets paid like it was still the 19th century)...a Trade that requires close observation and the ability to see as well as correct problems with the foot and with feet...and as as one who is pretty well regarded in the Trade, my opinions are anything but "blinkered" or "unsupported." You may have another opinion and you're entitled to them but on balance the physiology if nothing else lends credence to my observations.

And...in case it was missed, by anyone...I did say (several times) that I had never tried a pair on. All I have to go on is what I know about feet and foot structure.

However, at the same time you glibly sidestep any explanation of your previous assertion that buckle brogues are only for little girls (you call them Mary Janes) which was the point of what I said. If you genuinely do have such opinions then at least have the courage to say so.

Again, I think you're getting ahead of yourself, if you'll pardon me for saying so. The first time I ever heard the term "Mary Janes" used to describe this type of shoe was on this forum...several different times and any number of different posters. I never heard the word "tank" used to describe a kilt before I got here, either...that doesn't make me a war-monger. Fact is, shoes are shoes to me. Naturally, they do have connotations with regard to history and usage. But I can't recall saying they were for little girls...I think you've confused me with someone else.

[macwilkin]

All right gents, let's step back and take a breath.

We can disagree without being disagreeable. If we can't, then the thread will be locked.

Todd

[JRB]

Ooh...we're all tied up (68 all). This is getting exciting!

[ThistleDown]

I actually voted yes, but feel that one should take very seriously the reservations posed by Hamish and McMurdo. Perhaps one should ask "What would a Scot living in Scotland do?", and one could take a cue from many pictorial examples on this forum and on the web. It appears that many Scots wear a dress shoe version of brogues with normal dress shoe laces, called "wing-tip brogues" here in the States. Scots in Scotland apparently wear these non-ghillie laced brogues even in quite formal circumstances. I have previously posted a photo of the installation ceremony of the Finlaggen Pursuivant, showing several grand worthies wearing non-ghillie laced brogues.

To help lighted the thread, some truths.

This photo, with the High Chief of Clan Donald at the centre, shows the current shoe fashion for day wear in Scotland. Although many do not prefer them, so-called Ghillie Brogues are accepted and frequently worn as evening wear (never during the day). One never sees what have been called "Mary Janes" and rarely sees buckled shoes in Scotland today -- and never buckled shoes during the day.

Ghillie brogues (wherever and however they originated) are worn in two fashions: with short laces tied as one would normally tie a pair of shoes, or with a triple-twist at the ankle and taken once around the leg to tie, at the front, part way up the calf. The pressure is taken at the ankle, does not cut off circulation and makes them quite comfortable. The ties are never wrapped repeatedly around the ankle and tied.

Neither day wear nor evening wear shoes are "uniform" -- just the fashion of today. Elsewhere in this thread two illustrations were posted, probably taken from an older book. The first shows some sort of quasi-military garb that would certainly be thought of as "costumey" in Scotland today. The second, an illustration of two chaps in evening dress, is obviously also from the past, but is close to accepted "fashion" today.

Somebody else noted the presence of plaids in the Finlaggen photo. This folded blanket style is in fashion today, but is almost exclusively worn by chiefs, chieftains and other "gentlemen" in a day setting. It is sometimes even seen with trews and jacket during the day.

[Tommy Hunt]

I've seen two types of Ghillie Brogues. The ones we see above and the ones which look like slippers with many more shoe-lace eyelets in them. What's the difference?

[JRB]

...Somebody else noted the presence of plaids in the Finlaggen photo. This folded blanket style is in fashion today, but is almost exclusively worn by chiefs, chieftains and other "gentlemen" in a day setting...

That would explain why we call it a laird's plaid. I like the way it looks but it seems like it might be difficult to keep it on the shoulder.

[Blackdouglas]

I only wear them for formal events such as weddings or black tie events not good for day wear really. But for regimental dinners they are the business

[Bugbear]

I did some poking around in the formal (black tie/white tie) threads. It would seem that something on the line of black patent leather or shineyness would be the main requirement for any formal dress shoe. Not too much on the style of shoe though; at least in the black tie realm.

[ThistleDown]

That would explain why we call it a laird's plaid. I like the way it looks but it seems like it might be difficult to keep it on the shoulder.

It's folded so that the bulk of the width is on the shoulder. Still, it is not for actively moving about in and is really just a fashion with limited historical basis.

[ThistleDown]

I only wear them for formal events such as weddings or black tie events not good for day wear really. But for regimental dinners they are the business

Welcome, Blackdouglas.