Wearing a PC in the Daytime??

[davedove]

... Very few people, even herein, can justify having numerous semi-formal, formal, and numerous coats to be ready for every event in accorance with Emily Post's ideal attire.

And I believe this is why these "conventions" are slowly changing. We all have to remember that all these "rules" were developed by the upper crust of society, who could afford to have multiple outfits (or at least they would never admit that they couldn't).

There will be some who will argue that if one doesn't have all the different outfits, then one shouldn't attend the event. That just smacks of elitism to me. One can follow the conventions, but one shouldn't be a slave to them.

For many these days, their tuxedo is their formal outfit, and they wear it to whatever formal occasion they attend, no matter what time of day. The times and rules do change, no matter how much people might complain about how it's not "proper."

[macwilkin]

I don't know about you, but I'm a humble working jock and white tie events just kind of aren't on my social calendar. So I won't be buying a doublet any time soon.

Alan: As Rathdown mentioned, doublets are not necessarily reserved for white-tie affiars only. This humble working jock does own a doublet, and attends 3-4 formal events a year. I see no contradiction in being the son of a warehouseman and the grandson of an Iowa farmer and what jacket hangs in my in closet.

The poster asked a simple question as to what was appropriate to wear in the daytime in terms of Highland attire. Answers were given accordingly as to tradition and custom, and then the usual "don't tell me what to wear!" comments begin.

As davedove so respectfully pointed out -- yes, the custom is changing. I think we can all acknowledge this fact that the pragmatic and the ideal are not always the same, especially in sartorial matters. Yet recently around here, whenever someone does offer a viewpoint from the traditional customs of Highland attire, other folks feel they are being personally attacked, which I saw nothing to indicate that in the posts from the traditionalists.

Regards,

Todd

[DWFII]

The poster asked a simple question as to what was appropriate to wear in the daytime in terms of Highland attire. Answers were given accordingly as to tradition and custom, and then the usual "don't tell me what to wear!" comments begin.

[snip]Yet recently around here, whenever someone does offer a viewpoint from the traditional customs of Highland attire, other folks feel they are being personally attacked, which I saw nothing to indicate that in the posts from the traditionalists.

Todd,

You noticed that too?

Jeeze, how do we avoid this?

I want to wax sarcastic and suggest (as proposed in another thread) that there be separate forums for Traditionalists and those who chafe at rules, and order, and other such civil niceties. Maybe with an oath of allegiance to Traditional values...or anarchy (as the case may be)...required to post in those forums? But I'm afraid the humour would missed...or dismissed. Or the, perhaps too subtle, irony of the fact that there is already a sub forum for Traditionalists and (doh) another for non-traditionalists.

But I won't. I'll be respectful even though I suspect that being respectful is a wholly inappropriate response. So...

Maybe...just maybe...if we all recognized that "Traditionalists" (like every other POV) have a right to their opinions...and rules, and conventions...and when they are in direct response to a question posed in a sub-forum entitled (wait for it) "Traditional Kilts" (ahem) it doesn't require caveats.

"Can't we all just get a thong?" (with apologies to Rodney King)

[pastorsteve]

The poster asked a simple question as to what was appropriate to wear in the daytime in terms of Highland attire. Answers were given accordingly as to tradition and custom, and then the usual "don't tell me what to wear!" comments begin.

Todd

I don't read anyone really stating anything that coarse. And I think that if you're going to attend a white-tie affair you should be in white tie. Likewise with black-tie. But again, I don't see any reason to be afraid to wear your PC or Argyle because it's too early in the day for such an outfit. And again, in my opinion, over dressed is better than under dressed as long as you're not over-dressing a host/hostess.

[M_Beorn]

I was going to ask about White Tie events and what that constituted them, but decided to google it and started reading up on Wikipedia about both black and white tie dress.

According to Wikipedia (take that for what it worth), White Tie is the most formal of dress and Black Tie is actually considered Semi-Formal. It is interesting that they list western dress and Scottish Highland dress styles for both. I'll post the links rather than to cut and paste segments of the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_tie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_tie

[Jock Scot]

White tie, black tie, formal, informal I was always told and I have followed that advice for 60 odd years, that it was a guest's duty to discreetly find out what the dress requirements are for a particular event, if one was unsure.I was also always told that if a particular situation was really in doubt under dressing was far better than the alternative. Further more, I was also told that if one could not beg, borrow, hire or buy(in my time I have done all of these) the correct attire one should politely decline the invitation. None of this is rocket science. Is it?

[Panache]

None of this is rocket science. Is it?

Jock,

Most Americans, especially on the West Coast, on the whole are not familiar with the conventions of formal attire. Weddings are one of the few times that it is worn and even then the garments are more likely chosen based on the wishes of the bridal couple based on what they like the looks of instead of the conventions of formal wear. So event organisers may not have a clear idea of what the dress code is.

I think a great deal of our membership are both interested and a bit surprised to learn that there are a lot of conventions to formal wear that are considered standard outside the US.

The articles M_Beorn linked were very interesting and I had to smile to see that kilts and highland wear are so readily adaptable to formal events.

Show me a pair of pants that can be worn with hiking boots and a sweater in the morning for a walk, with a jacket and tie for an afternoon wedding, with a Prince Charlie coatee for a black tie dinner, and a doublet for white tie ball all in the same 24 hour period?

Bravo for the kilt!

Cheers

Jamie

[davedove]

Most Americans, especially on the West Coast, on the whole are not familiar with the conventions of formal attire. Weddings are one of the few times that it is worn and even then the garments are more likely chosen based on the wishes of the bridal couple based on what they like the looks of instead of the conventions of formal wear. So event organisers may not have a clear idea of what the dress code is.

I think a great deal of our membership are both interested and a bit surprised to learn that there are a lot of conventions to formal wear that are considered standard outside the US.

I think Jamie has hit on the meat of the matter. A lot of people, especially here in the States, don't know there are any conventions. They just have a general concept of "getting dressed up." Most don't know there is any difference between white tie and black tie, let alone what those differences are.

As Jamie said, the wedding party will chose their attire based on what they think looks good, or in many cases, what the bride likes, not what time of day it is. Guests will just attend in a jacket and tie (if you're lucky).

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

But again, I don't see any reason to be afraid to wear your PC or Argyle because it's too early in the day for such an outfit. And again, in my opinion, over dressed is better than under dressed as long as you're not over-dressing a host/hostess.

I'd have to disagree because overdressed is always going to be just that, dressed above the standard implied or requested by the host or hostess of the event.

I freely admit that some gentlemen only own a coatee or doublet, and therefore feel pressured into wearing it to any and all "jacket and tie" events. I would suggest that rather than give into that pressure these gentlemen would be far better off wearing an ordinary sports coat and tie with their kilt until such time as their circumstances allow them to acquire a traditionally cut day wear jacket.

[pastorsteve]

I'd have to disagree because overdressed is always going to be just that, dressed above the standard implied or requested by the host or hostess of the event.

I freely admit that some gentlemen only own a coatee or doublet, and therefore feel pressured into wearing it to any and all "jacket and tie" events. I would suggest that rather than give into that pressure these gentlemen would be far better off wearing an ordinary sports coat and tie with their kilt until such time as their circumstances allow them to acquire a traditionally cut day wear jacket.

Sir MacMilan, I agree and that's why included my caveat of not dressing above the host/hostess. At an "event" where there are dozens of people or maybe hundreds you will have a range of attire and again to me under dressed is more noticable and potentially offensive than over dressed.

In fact I've been invited to a party at a friends house this Saturday. It's an annual event and I have attended previously in a kilt. This year she asked if I would wear the PC but I have told her that I believe it to be too dressy for an otherwise jeans group. She said that she would try to get her husband to wear a tux and, if he does so, I will wear the PC for this evening event.