Wearing a PC in the Daytime??

[Panache]

However,might I respectfully ask, why is this question asked in the traditional kilt section if a traditional answer is not required?

Because Freelancer, the original poster, wanted to better understand these very conventions of highland formal wear. I assume he is reading what has been posted regarding the subject and has gleaned a better understanding of them.

Now it is up to him to decide how to use this information.

Cheers

Jamie

[Bugbear]

Alan: As Rathdown mentioned, doublets are not necessarily reserved for white-tie affiars only. This humble working jock does own a doublet, and attends 3-4 formal events a year. I see no contradiction in being the son of a warehouseman and the grandson of an Iowa farmer and what jacket hangs in my in closet.

The poster asked a simple question as to what was appropriate to wear in the daytime in terms of Highland attire. Answers were given accordingly as to tradition and custom, and then the usual "don't tell me what to wear!" comments begin.

As davedove so respectfully pointed out -- yes, the custom is changing. I think we can all acknowledge this fact that the pragmatic and the ideal are not always the same, especially in sartorial matters. Yet recently around here, whenever someone does offer a viewpoint from the traditional customs of Highland attire, other folks feel they are being personally attacked, which I saw nothing to indicate that in the posts from the traditionalists.

Regards,

Todd

Having asked more than my fair share of questions of you all, I think the traditionalists are a very valuable resource to the forum. That is not to say that the non-traditionalist have less value.

Sometimes I feel caught between the two sides, and it seems like they are saying the same things about each other.

[Jock Scot]

Because Freelancer, the original poster, wanted to better understand these very conventions of highland formal wear. I assume he is reading what has been posted regarding the subject and has gleaned a better understanding of them.

Now it is up to him to decide how to use this information.

Cheers

Jamie

Yes, that is fine for Freelancer, but this whole thread does raise the question of what traditional means. Are we to use yours and Dave's reasoning of what traditional is,in other words the "interested of the USA", but we will ignore the advice given? Or, the traditional Scots idea of what is traditional? Do we go as far as great kilts? Personally ,I think not,but there may be some out there that think otherwise.The final thought,and it has to be faced,are we talking about the non Scots hijacking a traditional Scots kilt(no one else is seriously claiming to have developed it)and then choosing to ignore the conventions that go with it? I am sorry to say that yours and Dave's honest replies suggest that is where we are heading.

[McMurdo]

Jock I can not help but agree with you, to my mind, and this is my experience, being properly dressed for Black or White Tie has absolutely nothing to do with geography. Black Tie Highland wear should be the same the world over, and it should not be seen before 6PM those are the conventions. It should not matter where in the world the original poster is, it is not proper to wear Black tie attire during the day, notwithstanding the fact that conventions are changing.

I also find it interesting that a simple question like this one can degrade into yet another traditional vs non conformist thread. The original poster simply wanted a traditionalist view on wearing a PC during the day, if you are a non conformist why bother answering it?

[Panache]

...this whole thread does raise the question of what traditional means. Are we to use yours and Dave's reasoning of what traditional is,in other words the "interested of the USA", but we will ignore the advice given?

Just because a knowledge of formal wear isn't prevalent in our modern American society doesn't mean that there isn't an interest in it. These threads help our our members and literally thousands of visitors to XMTS.

A constant problem that I see arising in these threads (and the irritation at our staunch traditionalists) is based on a reluctance among the traditionalists to accept that there are modern conventions of formal wear.

Because of this, the good advice that you, Sandford, MoM, and the other staunch traditionalists give is called into question.

There is a massive difference between not liking a current style and saying that it is wrong and not acknowledging it as a fashion.

Taking the bull by the horns let's bring up the dreaded subject of white hose!



ahem



White hose can and is often worn with Highland formal wear!!!!

This is a fashion that has come into vogue in the last 20-30 years.

Likely it stems from...

(1) Shops needing large quantities of relatively inexpensive hose to sell to people renting kilts that worked with most tartans

(2) People being used to seeing men in kilts with white hose because some pipe bands wore them

(3) Making the highland formal look a closer match to a gentleman in a standard dinner jacket or tail coat

(4) The cost to produce diced or argyll hose

(5) Men using less colors in fashion in general


Regardless of the reason why, the evidence of my statement can be found at a huge amount of websites selling kilts, renting highland outfits, tartan mills, various paper catalogues, and any number of photos both in Scotland and elsewhere of men in highland attire both in print and online.

It isn't a joke

It isn't a prank

It is without a doubt a well established fashion.

Now you might absolutely hate this fashion Jock.

You may detest it.

It may be nothing like what you grew up with.

That is absolutely fine.

But if you or someone else tries to argue that it is not a fashion, that it is foolish, that it is not done, and that people look stupid wearing them then you are going to be seen as intolerant, old fashioned, and completely out of touch with the subject matter. Those that may have been really interested in what you had to say before will turn away from your advice because you obviously are so set in your ways that your advice isn't worth much.

Now I have a little personal bugaboo about highland formal wear. Wearing a waist plate and waist coat together give me the screaming meemies. It looks so wrong to me. It makes the waistcoat look ill fitting, it destroys the lines of the waist coat, and worst of all it leads to an expanse of white dress shirt being seen between the bottom of the jacket and waistcoat and the kilt!

ARRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!

However I know people that do this, a fair number of them in fact. I could walk up to each and everyone of them and rudely tell them that they looked stupid, but in fact I would be the stupid one. It is a modern variant of a formal look for highland attire. I accept it. Now if asked my advice on the subject I will politely state that though it is a modern fashion I do not care for it an will suggest that one either wear a waist plate or waist coat but not both.

Thus gently I do my little part to discourage this (IMHO) less than desirable fashion turn.

If I stated "you look like a fool that never was taught how to dress properly. A belt and waist coat? The clerks must have had a good laugh at your expense when you left the shop!" I am quite certain that the other person would be offended at me and their opinion of my fashion sense would plummet.

Sandford may dislike white hose, Matt Newsome may dislike modern flashes, MoR may dislike Prince Charlie coatees, I don't like the waist coat / waist plate doubling up.

But it behooves us to indicate our dislike of them and preference for earlier styles / fashions as our opinion.

This small concession would eliminate a lot of the arguments about formal wear on XMTS.

ith:

Cheers

Jamie

[Jock Scot]

Jamie. Let me say at once, that you, me and many,many others believe in the words;"each to their own".That is a must, in any free thinking part of this world.

What I feel is the problem is and I have no intention of falling out with any one, is what many people think is "old fashioned" not" keeping up with the times", "Old hat"(sorry!),"out of date", IS NOT! We,me, in Scotland and other places in the world wear the so called "out dated" clothes NOW, TODAY, TOMORROW ,NEXT YEAR, and with a spot of luck next century.Thank goodness there are a goodly number of Scots who think so too.The attire is current, no more no less.

To those who say "ah yes, we have the freedom to wear what we like and no one can tell us otherwise!" I say :"well not quite,with freedom comes responsibilities and one of those responsibilities is to maintain and develop traditions". Yes, I do get rather protective of my traditions and I admit it,but I hope I that no one will accuse me of not trying, in a good natured way, to stear those back on course that are straying from a very wide road.

[DWFII]

Jock I can not help but agree with you, to my mind, and this is my experience, being properly dressed for Black or White Tie has absolutely nothing to do with geography. Black Tie Highland wear should be the same the world over, and it should not be seen before 6PM those are the conventions. It should not matter where in the world the original poster is, it is not proper to wear Black tie attire during the day, notwithstanding the fact that conventions are changing.

I also find it interesting that a simple question like this one can degrade into yet another traditional vs non conformist thread. The original poster simply wanted a traditionalist view on wearing a PC during the day, if you are a non conformist why bother answering it?

I agree with all of this, Glen.

To my way of looking at it, it is really of no consequence that some portions of American society disdain...or are woefully ignorant of...formal wear conventions. They're free to disregard such conventions (or wallow in their ignorance) as they please.

But!...that doesn't change the fact that formal wear conventions do exist and that if one is even thinking of wearing black tie, then it is the better part of wisdom to abide by black tie rules. As you say, "Black Tie Highland wear should be the same the world over."

Asking the question is the first step in getting it right...ignoring the answer puts one right back where they started.

As for the second part of your remark...what I find interesting is that even in a sub-forum that is ostensibly focused on Traditional Highland Attire, somehow the "non-conformist" point of view creeps in. I can understand (and even to some degree applaud at least the spirit) the broad and eclectic mix of opinions elsewhere on Xmarks. But in this context, it almost seems deliberately provocative, in my opinion. I mean I have never even been tempted to jump in and offer my, admittedly narrow(er) views in the "Contemporary and Non-Traditional" sub-forum. I don't even open that section, to tell the truth.

[DWFII]

Jamie. Let me say at once, that you me and many,many others believe in the words;"each to their own".That is a must, in any free thinking part of this world.

What I feel is the problem is and I have no intention of falling out with any one, is what many people think is "old fashioned" not" keeping up with the times", "Old hat"(sorry!),"out of date", IS NOT! We,me, in Scotland and other places in the world wear the so called "out dated" clothes NOW, TODAY, TOMORROW ,NEXT YEAR, and with a spot of luck next century.Thank goodness there are a goodly number of Scots who think so too.The attire is current, no more no less.

To those who say "ah yes, we have the freedom to wear what we like and no one can tell us otherwise!" I say :"well not quite,with freedom comes responsibilities and one of those responsibilities is to maintain and develop traditions". Yes, I do get rather protective of my traditions and I admit it,but I hope I that no one will accuse me of not trying, in a good natured way, to stear those back on course that are straying from a very wide road.

Jock,

That was well said, in my opinion.

[Panache]

It strikes me Jock that 'traditional" is a poor word to convey the style of highland wear you and others advocate.

"Traditional" can mean a great kilt (very old tradition)

"Traditional": can mean a PC and white hose (very modern tradition)

I think we need a new word.

A way to define the style of highland wear that flourished between World War I and World War II.

I can think of no better description than "Classic"

"Classic" is not old fashioned, yet it is not modern.

"Classic" is timeless

"Classic" never goes out of style (Think for a minute of Humphrey Boggart in his trench coat in Casablanca, Sean Connery in Goldfinger, and Cary Grant in...well anything. They looked darn good then, and they would look darn good today! )

I think that if we can make a small shift in our thinking here on XMTS we would end this silly problem.

Question: Can I wear white hose with my Prince Charlie Coatee?

Jock: Well you can, people do nowadays. However the classic look is to wear diced or argyll hose. It just is the way that i have always done it and it always looks right.

What say you Jock?

ith:

Cheers

Jamie

[Jock Scot]

It strikes me Jock that 'traditional" is a poor word to convey the style of highland wear you and others advocate.

"Traditional" can mean a great kilt (very old tradition)

"Traditional": can mean a PC and white hose (very modern tradition)

I think we need a new word.

A way to define the style of highland wear that flourished between World War I and World War II.

I can think of no better description than "Classic"

"Classic" is not old fashioned, yet it is not modern.

"Classic" is timeless

"Classic" never goes out of style (Think for a minute of Humphrey Boggart in his trench coat in Casablanca, Sean Connery in Goldfinger, and Cary Grant in...well anything. They looked darn good then, and they would look darn good today! )

I think that if we can make a small shift in our thinking here on XMTS we would end this silly problem.

Question: Can I wear white hose with my Prince Charlie Coatee?

Jock: Well you can, people do nowadays. However the classic look is to wear diced or argyll hose. It just is the way that i have always done it and it always looks right.

What say you Jock?

ith:

Cheers

Jamie

I would like to think that is more or less my style of answering that sort of question. I may have strayed on occasion though! The trouble arises when someone chips in with the "you can't tell me what to wear,I am a ----- and no one tells me what and when I can wear-----------!"Well sorry, I can if I choose to(I am not making a big deal of this!Honest!) its my country's traditions that people are meddling with. Unwittingly, maybe,I grant you.