Wearing a PC in the Daytime??

[Jock Scot]

Because Freelancer, the original poster, wanted to better understand these very conventions of highland formal wear. I assume he is reading what has been posted regarding the subject and has gleaned a better understanding of them.

Now it is up to him to decide how to use this information.

Cheers

Jamie

Yes, that is fine for Freelancer, but this whole thread does raise the question of what traditional means. Are we to use yours and Dave's reasoning of what traditional is,in other words the "interested of the USA", but we will ignore the advice given? Or, the traditional Scots idea of what is traditional? Do we go as far as great kilts? Personally ,I think not,but there may be some out there that think otherwise.The final thought,and it has to be faced,are we talking about the non Scots hijacking a traditional Scots kilt(no one else is seriously claiming to have developed it)and then choosing to ignore the conventions that go with it? I am sorry to say that yours and Dave's honest replies suggest that is where we are heading.

[Panache]

...this whole thread does raise the question of what traditional means. Are we to use yours and Dave's reasoning of what traditional is,in other words the "interested of the USA", but we will ignore the advice given?

Just because a knowledge of formal wear isn't prevalent in our modern American society doesn't mean that there isn't an interest in it. These threads help our our members and literally thousands of visitors to XMTS.

A constant problem that I see arising in these threads (and the irritation at our staunch traditionalists) is based on a reluctance among the traditionalists to accept that there are modern conventions of formal wear.

Because of this, the good advice that you, Sandford, MoM, and the other staunch traditionalists give is called into question.

There is a massive difference between not liking a current style and saying that it is wrong and not acknowledging it as a fashion.

Taking the bull by the horns let's bring up the dreaded subject of white hose!



ahem



White hose can and is often worn with Highland formal wear!!!!

This is a fashion that has come into vogue in the last 20-30 years.

Likely it stems from...

(1) Shops needing large quantities of relatively inexpensive hose to sell to people renting kilts that worked with most tartans

(2) People being used to seeing men in kilts with white hose because some pipe bands wore them

(3) Making the highland formal look a closer match to a gentleman in a standard dinner jacket or tail coat

(4) The cost to produce diced or argyll hose

(5) Men using less colors in fashion in general


Regardless of the reason why, the evidence of my statement can be found at a huge amount of websites selling kilts, renting highland outfits, tartan mills, various paper catalogues, and any number of photos both in Scotland and elsewhere of men in highland attire both in print and online.

It isn't a joke

It isn't a prank

It is without a doubt a well established fashion.

Now you might absolutely hate this fashion Jock.

You may detest it.

It may be nothing like what you grew up with.

That is absolutely fine.

But if you or someone else tries to argue that it is not a fashion, that it is foolish, that it is not done, and that people look stupid wearing them then you are going to be seen as intolerant, old fashioned, and completely out of touch with the subject matter. Those that may have been really interested in what you had to say before will turn away from your advice because you obviously are so set in your ways that your advice isn't worth much.

Now I have a little personal bugaboo about highland formal wear. Wearing a waist plate and waist coat together give me the screaming meemies. It looks so wrong to me. It makes the waistcoat look ill fitting, it destroys the lines of the waist coat, and worst of all it leads to an expanse of white dress shirt being seen between the bottom of the jacket and waistcoat and the kilt!

ARRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!

However I know people that do this, a fair number of them in fact. I could walk up to each and everyone of them and rudely tell them that they looked stupid, but in fact I would be the stupid one. It is a modern variant of a formal look for highland attire. I accept it. Now if asked my advice on the subject I will politely state that though it is a modern fashion I do not care for it an will suggest that one either wear a waist plate or waist coat but not both.

Thus gently I do my little part to discourage this (IMHO) less than desirable fashion turn.

If I stated "you look like a fool that never was taught how to dress properly. A belt and waist coat? The clerks must have had a good laugh at your expense when you left the shop!" I am quite certain that the other person would be offended at me and their opinion of my fashion sense would plummet.

Sandford may dislike white hose, Matt Newsome may dislike modern flashes, MoR may dislike Prince Charlie coatees, I don't like the waist coat / waist plate doubling up.

But it behooves us to indicate our dislike of them and preference for earlier styles / fashions as our opinion.

This small concession would eliminate a lot of the arguments about formal wear on XMTS.

ith:

Cheers

Jamie

[Jock Scot]

Jamie. Let me say at once, that you, me and many,many others believe in the words;"each to their own".That is a must, in any free thinking part of this world.

What I feel is the problem is and I have no intention of falling out with any one, is what many people think is "old fashioned" not" keeping up with the times", "Old hat"(sorry!),"out of date", IS NOT! We,me, in Scotland and other places in the world wear the so called "out dated" clothes NOW, TODAY, TOMORROW ,NEXT YEAR, and with a spot of luck next century.Thank goodness there are a goodly number of Scots who think so too.The attire is current, no more no less.

To those who say "ah yes, we have the freedom to wear what we like and no one can tell us otherwise!" I say :"well not quite,with freedom comes responsibilities and one of those responsibilities is to maintain and develop traditions". Yes, I do get rather protective of my traditions and I admit it,but I hope I that no one will accuse me of not trying, in a good natured way, to stear those back on course that are straying from a very wide road.

[DWFII]

Jamie. Let me say at once, that you me and many,many others believe in the words;"each to their own".That is a must, in any free thinking part of this world.

What I feel is the problem is and I have no intention of falling out with any one, is what many people think is "old fashioned" not" keeping up with the times", "Old hat"(sorry!),"out of date", IS NOT! We,me, in Scotland and other places in the world wear the so called "out dated" clothes NOW, TODAY, TOMORROW ,NEXT YEAR, and with a spot of luck next century.Thank goodness there are a goodly number of Scots who think so too.The attire is current, no more no less.

To those who say "ah yes, we have the freedom to wear what we like and no one can tell us otherwise!" I say :"well not quite,with freedom comes responsibilities and one of those responsibilities is to maintain and develop traditions". Yes, I do get rather protective of my traditions and I admit it,but I hope I that no one will accuse me of not trying, in a good natured way, to stear those back on course that are straying from a very wide road.

Jock,

That was well said, in my opinion.

[McClef]

The width of the road does seem to depend upon who is driving down it.

Absolute rules to some are seen as variable to others and what is a tradition to one place is not that in another.

When I graduated from St Andrews it was in white tie, not because I chose but because this was the requirement of the institution. No doubt this requirement breaks every rule in the book in the eyes of some but there was no room for protest that it broke the white tie rules. Why this rule was/is there and where it started I still have no idea. But it is Scotland's oldest university and that is their tradition.

[Bugbear]

Classic Highland attire! I like the sound of that.

[Bugbear]

See! There's another MacMillan of Rathdown post on wearing an Argyle for black tie attire rather than a PC.

I still like the term "clasic," but there are a couple of historical topics I should look into in relation to Scotland and my own heritage?, so to speak...

Perhaps there are traditions and conventions in that heritage that I could think of as traditional...

Thankfully there is a lot of modern research into that history and heritage being done now a days.

[Panache]

My personal take on kilt hose

I think that there are white / ecru kilt hose and then there are white / ecru kilt hose.

I chose not to wear my white hose with my formal jacket this past Nor Cal Rabble's Burns' Night Supper (Todd helped me decide on charcoal grey which worked fine).

The biggest factor with me not the color but the quality.

Now Alan happens to have some absolutely wonderfully made hand knitted white / off white kilt hose.

My friend Andrew Lenz lent his brother (also a very good friend) a pair of similar hose (I believe in natural wool) for this event.

In comparrison my white hose were a thin and an acrylic wool blend.

I'm sorry but they just didn't cut it. It seemed silly to pair wear cheap hose with such a nice outfit.

If I were going to wear white / off white hose, especially with formal wear, I would want them to be nice ones like the Lewis hose that Matt Newsome sells or better.

By the by, Alan's hose and the one's John wore looked great with formal wear.

But instead of going for white Lewis hose or beautiful hand white hand knit ones I am becoming more and more intrigued by diced or argyll socks.

That doesn't make me a "staunch traditionalist" or "classic kilt attire lover" but it shows that those on XMTS who are such are an influence on my evolving sense of kilted fashion

Just my two cents

Cheers

Jamie

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

...MoR may dislike Prince Charlie coatees,

Jamie, I don't dislike coatees. What I loathe are the poorly made, ill-fitting, and totally over priced "Prince Charlie" coatees that one sees in profusion. Most are cut too short in the body and not full enough in the front, especially for guys with a bit of a bay window for a tummy.

The Dress Argyll jacket, even if poorly tailored, offers the advantage of being able to be worn day or evening, and is far more flattering to a large waisted gentleman.

The same is true for white socks-- they are fine for bandsmen and pipers a'piping.

They are ghastly on men in civilian attire (bandsmen and pipers are in "uniform" in my book) because, being white, they accentuate the thickness of the leg, giving larger men the look of having "beer keg" calves, while at the same time making a man's legs look even shorter, something gentlemen who find the letter "S" written after their jacket size usually want to avoid. Finally, they send out the signal that your outfit, no matter how smart, expensive, or well tailored, is probably rented.

That's just for the record...