Wearing a PC in the Daytime??

[Panache]

Well, when I first posed this question, I never expected a sort of "Spanish Inquisition"!

Ken,

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUSITION!


It had to be said



Cheers

Jamie

[Cherub]

Ken,

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUSITION!


It had to be said



Cheers

Jamie

darn you beat me to it...

[DWFII]

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUSITION!


It had to be said

Well, the flip side of that (and surely it goes without saying) is that once we slip the surly bonds of soliloquy, all bets are off...all expectations untenable and unrealistic.

Which, I suspect, is how we ended up talking about white hose in a discussion that began with Prince Charlie coatees.

It's human nature [shrug]...

[Friday]

First let me say that even though I try to wear my kilt and kilt attire as traditionally as I can, I am one that chafes at some of the statements made by some of the “traditionalist.” In some cases it may rest on a semantically discussion, perhaps if the statements made were more in the vain of “traditionally” this was the way this article of attire of clothing was worn, rather than what I perceive as the more common the ‘that must not be worn it this way.”

I fully believe in traditions, but, I do believe that Emily Post and others of her group did a disservice to tradition when they seem to write “tradition” in stone. Tradition is simply what was done in the past. However, that past was not stagnant it changes and evolves. Who decides at what point that evolution stops?

McClef says that he graduated from St. Andrews’ in white tie in the day light. Ye Gads the man should be shot, white tie in the day light. Yes, and it was proper because this is the tradition at St. Andrews. I would like to have the time to really research this tradition. When the wearing of white tie for the graduation first started was it proper to wear white tie in the daylight for special occasions? Were the graduations at St. Andrews originally held in the evening so that the working/traveling family of the graduates could attend, and over the years the time of the graduation changed but the attire did not?

From what I have read and heard if we look at what is often called traditional highland attire would not have been worn 50 or 100 years before the tradition was “codified”. In addition what is often called traditional highland attire was not what would have been worn by the vast majority of Scottish people. The traditional attire is more what would have been worn by the upper class Scot and English. Do you think that the average Scottish farmer would have had brown belts and sporrans for day wear and run home to change into black leather at night?

I await to be corrected, but, what I often hear as the proper traditional way to wear highland attire is based on the requirements for attending society events, either day, evening or night. I’m know that I would not fit in local “society” much less 16th, 17th or 18th English society why should I be bound by their requirements? As I wear my kilts I will do so with respect to the heritage behind them, but not always to what I consider to be out dated traditions.

Last point, I respect those that are more traditional than I am, I want to thank them for their view point and knowledge, and if I have offend in the past in my questions I apologies.

[duchessofnc]

First let me say that even though I try to wear my kilt and kilt attire as traditionally as I can, I am one that chafes at some of the statements made by some of the “traditionalist.” In some cases it may rest on a semantically discussion, perhaps if the statements made were more in the vain of “traditionally” this was the way this article of attire of clothing was worn, rather than what I perceive as the more common the ‘that must not be worn it this way.”

I fully believe in traditions, but, I do believe that Emily Post and others of her group did a disservice to tradition when they seem to write “tradition” in stone. Tradition is simply what was done in the past. However, that past was not stagnant it changes and evolves. Who decides at what point that evolution stops?

McClef says that he graduated from St. Andrews’ in white tie in the day light. Ye Gads the man should be shot, white tie in the day light. Yes, and it was proper because this is the tradition at St. Andrews. I would like to have the time to really research this tradition. When the wearing of white tie for the graduation first started was it proper to wear white tie in the daylight for special occasions? Were the graduations at St. Andrews originally held in the evening so that the working/traveling family of the graduates could attend, and over the years the time of the graduation changed but the attire did not?

From what I have read and heard if we look at what is often called traditional highland attire would not have been worn 50 or 100 years before the tradition was “codified”. In addition what is often called traditional highland attire was not what would have been worn by the vast majority of Scottish people. The traditional attire is more what would have been worn by the upper class Scot and English. Do you think that the average Scottish farmer would have had brown belts and sporrans for day wear and run home to change into black leather at night?

I await to be corrected, but, what I often hear as the proper traditional way to wear highland attire is based on the requirements for attending society events, either day, evening or night. I’m know that I would not fit in local “society” much less 16th, 17th or 18th English society why should I be bound by their requirements? As I wear my kilts I will do so with respect to the heritage behind them, but not always to what I consider to be out dated traditions.

Last point, I respect those that are more traditional than I am, I want to thank them for their view point and knowledge, and if I have offend in the past in my questions I apologies.

You make some good points in your statement and I think everyone here agrees that yes there are always some exceptions to the rule, tradition is built upon what was commonly done. White tie in the middle of the day, while appropriate in some cases (such as graduating from St. Andrews), traditionally does not mean the rule.

Tradition is what is commonly done. Not the odd ball circumstance. For example, wearing a Tuxedo is commonly done at events in the evening, however, if a wedding is done in the middle of the day, of course a Tuxedo would be appropriate.

I think that tradition is being muddled and the answers being given here are based on what is commonly done. Now while I seem to have derailed this topic even further, out of curiosity.. what does this really have to do with wearing a PC in the daytime from a traditionalist stance?

[Phil]

I await to be corrected, but, what I often hear as the proper traditional way to wear highland attire is based on the requirements for attending society events, either day, evening or night. I’m know that I would not fit in local “society” much less 16th, 17th or 18th English society why should I be bound by their requirements? As I wear my kilts I will do so with respect to the heritage behind them, but not always to what I consider to be out dated traditions.

I am not sure that your contention here is entirely correct in that formal dress is not, and has never been, the exclusive preserve of English (and Scottish) high society. You only have to take in a few older movies to realise that Americans among many other nations also differentiated their dress according to the time of day. Think Fred Astaire "mussin' up his white tie". Dressing-down really only became the norm from the late 1960's onward when it became acceptable to attend an evening dance casually dressed. Before this a visit to the hire shop for a tux would have been necessary if one was to be allowed to join in. And it does not have to be just "society events". Who has not heard of "Sunday best" and the fact that nobody would have attended church on a Sunday in anything but their best clothes?
Just think of any type of function you might attend. If you are a woman you will probably go to the hairdresser, look for some new accessories, maybe even a new dress and shoes! What do some of us men do? Well we might take a shower, slap on some after-shave. Gee let's go to town and wear that new pair of socks just for the occasion! That is not only letting down your partner and everyone else there who has gone to a lot of trouble to look good, it is also letting yourself down. If you dress up in your finest clothes you are making a statement that you recognise and value the importance of the event and the people there. If, however, you wear clothing that has been on your back all day what then is special about it? It might as well be that old t-shirt or denim jacket. Perhaps this helps to explain why a PC should properly be worn as an evening jacket only. To do otherwise removes the purpose of having one in the first place.

[Friday]

I am not sure that your contention here is entirely correct in that formal dress is not, and has never been, the exclusive preserve of English (and Scottish) high society. You only have to take in a few older movies to realise that Americans among many other nations also differentiated their dress according to the time of day.

What you say is true many nations differentiate their dress according to the time of day. However, my underlying question is the why is this tradition in place and should it apply to this occasion. As for "Fred Astaire 'mussin' up his white tie" why is Fred wearing a white tie? Did the rules for formal attire spontaneously appear in the US on its own or did the US "borrow" the dress codes from someone, for example the English?

Perhaps this helps to explain why a PC should properly be worn as an evening jacket only. To do otherwise removes the purpose of having one in the first place.

Wouldn't it be better to associate a piece of attire to a type of event rather than a time of day? Is a parade in which the local Scottish Society important enough to wear a PC even in the day time? Is an afternoon wedding important enough for a PC? From a very strict interpretation of rules of formal attire just taking my lady out for a special evening would not be reason enough for me to wear my PC, just as it would not be appropriate to wear a tails coat.


When I ask why, it is to understand the reason the original tradition came about. I have no problem breaking the rules, I just find I am better at it when I know the rules first.

[JSFMACLJR]

Wouldn't it be better to associate a piece of attire to a type of event rather than a time of day? Is a parade in which the local Scottish Society important enough to wear a PC even in the day time? Is an afternoon wedding important enough for a PC? From a very strict interpretation of rules of formal attire just taking my lady out for a special evening would not be reason enough for me to wear my PC, just as it would not be appropriate to wear a tails coat.


When I ask why, it is to understand the reason the original tradition came about. I have no problem breaking the rules, I just find I am better at it when I know the rules first.

This could get silly, Friday. Where does one wear a blue blazer? A sales call? Dinner at a nice restaurant? Lunch? Church? Where don't you wear it? And what about jeans? To what event can you wear them? To what can't you wear them? How about a grey suit? A navy suit? A khaki poplin suit or a seersucker suit? It gets silly very fast!

And who is going to make this list? It would have to be a very complex and detailed one, no? And what about "local options?"

I'm writing this a bit in jest, because frankly I find your idea quite preposterous. The established dress customs and traditions work just fine. If you want to read about their history and how we got to this point, by all means do so. You'll find it very enlightening. At the same time, why must there always be some individuals who insist on questioning established conventions? Look, you wear a dinner jacket/tuxedo in the EVENING, to whatever sort of event calls for it. My late father changed into a dinner jacket or velvet or tartan smoking jacket for dinner on most nights of the year...and that's for dining at home. By doing so, he set apart that time as special, and he honoured my mother by dressing like a gentleman. I'm not saying this is the norm, but it was for many, many years and for many, many people. Officers (serving or former) of the Household Division when dining out in London used to wear white tie ( full dress ). Why? Because they were gentlemen and gentlemen dressed that way.

When I was born, my father went to the hospital dressed in a morning coat with striped trousers bacause he, as Chairman of the Board of his company, had been at a Directors Meeting earlier. The nursing staff thought he was an undertaker and asked him to use the back entrance, as it would be distressing to the new mummies and daddies in the maternity ward to see an undertaker! That was in 1961, in Woodstock, Ontario. My father dressed that way because that is the way businessmen dressed and he was an officer of the corporation. When he went to the opera, he wore white tie. When he went to a daytime wedding, he wore morning dress or a lounge suit, depending on the circumstances. Evening wedding, dinner jacket or a lounge suit. When kilted, in the daytime he wore a tweed doublet. In the evening, a doublet of his choosing (for he had a number of them in different style). Sometimes he wore a jabot, sometimes a bow tie. He didn't wear this rig before 1800h. He did, however, throughout his life, attend a number of levees, at which he wore levee dress. When he attended the Queen's Accession Council in Ottawa in 1952 he was properly attired, including a sword.

The point of this post is, Friday, that you wear things because it is expected. It's as simple as that. Even Americans follow conventions of dress!

[Monkey@Arms]

This could get silly, Friday. Where does one wear a blue blazer? A sales call? Dinner at a nice restaurant? Lunch? Church? Where don't you wear it? And what about jeans? To what event can you wear them? To what can't you wear them? How about a grey suit? A navy suit? A khaki poplin suit or a seersucker suit? It gets silly very fast!

And who is going to make this list? It would have to be a very complex and detailed one, no? And what about "local options?"

I'm writing this a bit in jest, because frankly I find your idea quite preposterous. The established dress customs and traditions work just fine. If you want to read about their history and how we got to this point, by all means do so. You'll find it very enlightening. At the same time, why must there always be some individuals who insist on questioning established conventions? Look, you wear a dinner jacket/tuxedo in the EVENING, to whatever sort of event calls for it. My late father changed into a dinner jacket or velvet or tartan smoking jacket for dinner on most nights of the year...and that's for dining at home. By doing so, he set apart that time as special, and he honoured my mother by dressing like a gentleman. I'm not saying this is the norm, but it was for many, many years and for many, many people. Officers (serving or former) of the Household Division when dining out in London used to wear white tie ( full dress ). Why? Because they were gentlemen and gentlemen dressed that way.

When I was born, my father went to the hospital dressed in a morning coat with striped trousers bacause he, as Chairman of the Board of his company, had been at a Directors Meeting earlier. The nursing staff thought he was an undertaker and asked him to use the back entrance, as it would be distressing to the new mummies and daddies in the maternity ward to see an undertaker! That was in 1961, in Woodstock, Ontario. My father dressed that way because that is the way businessmen dressed and he was an officer of the corporation. When he went to the opera, he wore white tie. When he went to a daytime wedding, he wore morning dress or a lounge suit, depending on the circumstances. Evening wedding, dinner jacket or a lounge suit. When kilted, in the daytime he wore a tweed doublet. In the evening, a doublet of his choosing (for he had a number of them in different style). Sometimes he wore a jabot, sometimes a bow tie. He didn't wear this rig before 1800h. He did, however, throughout his life, attend a number of levees, at which he wore levee dress. When he attended the Queen's Accession Council in Ottawa in 1952 he was properly attired, including a sword.

The point of this post is, Friday, that you wear things because it is expected. It's as simple as that. Even Americans follow conventions of dress!

Dude, this explains a lot. Now I was but a mere babe in 1961 but on this side of the border I suspect only the Rockefellers, Astors, and people of that ilk dressed in the manner you describe.

I'm beginning to suspect British class distinctions, and American antipathy to such things, have a lot to do with the recurring tensions that occur in some of the threads.

Best regards,

Jake

[JSFMACLJR]

McClef says that he graduated from St. Andrews’ in white tie in the day light. Ye Gads the man should be shot, white tie in the day light. Yes, and it was proper because this is the tradition at St. Andrews. I would like to have the time to really research this tradition. When the wearing of white tie for the graduation first started was it proper to wear white tie in the daylight for special occasions? Were the graduations at St. Andrews originally held in the evening so that the working/traveling family of the graduates could attend, and over the years the time of the graduation changed but the attire did not?


.

I really should let McClef speak for himself, but what the graduates at St. Andrew's wear is NOT "white tie", as one would see on an invitation to a ball or whatever. That is something completely different, Students at the greater universities in Scotland and England wear what is called "subfusc." Subfusc consists of a dark suit, white shirt and collar, and white bow tie, in addition to the academic tat. Yes, the bow tie is white, but that does not mean one is wearing "white tie!" When most people say "white tie" they really mean full dress, or formal evening dress. A tail coat, white waistcoat, trousers with braid are worn with this rig. That certainly is not the case at St. Andrew's.

The white tie worn in academia is covered by a whole different set of traditions and rules, although the actual neck piece evolved from the same source as the tie worn with formal dress. You can read all sorts of articles about academic dress online. Check out the Burgon Society, if you are interested.