Wearing a PC in the Daytime??

[Bugbear]

Ted this is getting silly. The kilt attire that you call "classic" is one and the same thing as "traditional" and in my view has been that way,with a few addaptions,modifications,additions,subtractions along the way,since the 1820's. I am not for one second saying that things should be frozen in time. Kilt and kilt attire history clearly demonstrates that it adapts and changes.Nevertheless there are still conventions,courtesies and traditions to be observed.

I don't have any problem with the term "traditional highland attire." Or "traditional kilt attire." It's not really that much of a difference in my mind from classic either. What can I do?

I didn't come up with it.

Guess I did say that I like the sound of "classic Highland attire," but it does kind of sound catchy...

How did I end up here again, and when will I learn?

[DWFII]

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUSITION!


It had to be said

Well, the flip side of that (and surely it goes without saying) is that once we slip the surly bonds of soliloquy, all bets are off...all expectations untenable and unrealistic.

Which, I suspect, is how we ended up talking about white hose in a discussion that began with Prince Charlie coatees.

It's human nature [shrug]...

[Friday]

First let me say that even though I try to wear my kilt and kilt attire as traditionally as I can, I am one that chafes at some of the statements made by some of the “traditionalist.” In some cases it may rest on a semantically discussion, perhaps if the statements made were more in the vain of “traditionally” this was the way this article of attire of clothing was worn, rather than what I perceive as the more common the ‘that must not be worn it this way.”

I fully believe in traditions, but, I do believe that Emily Post and others of her group did a disservice to tradition when they seem to write “tradition” in stone. Tradition is simply what was done in the past. However, that past was not stagnant it changes and evolves. Who decides at what point that evolution stops?

McClef says that he graduated from St. Andrews’ in white tie in the day light. Ye Gads the man should be shot, white tie in the day light. Yes, and it was proper because this is the tradition at St. Andrews. I would like to have the time to really research this tradition. When the wearing of white tie for the graduation first started was it proper to wear white tie in the daylight for special occasions? Were the graduations at St. Andrews originally held in the evening so that the working/traveling family of the graduates could attend, and over the years the time of the graduation changed but the attire did not?

From what I have read and heard if we look at what is often called traditional highland attire would not have been worn 50 or 100 years before the tradition was “codified”. In addition what is often called traditional highland attire was not what would have been worn by the vast majority of Scottish people. The traditional attire is more what would have been worn by the upper class Scot and English. Do you think that the average Scottish farmer would have had brown belts and sporrans for day wear and run home to change into black leather at night?

I await to be corrected, but, what I often hear as the proper traditional way to wear highland attire is based on the requirements for attending society events, either day, evening or night. I’m know that I would not fit in local “society” much less 16th, 17th or 18th English society why should I be bound by their requirements? As I wear my kilts I will do so with respect to the heritage behind them, but not always to what I consider to be out dated traditions.

Last point, I respect those that are more traditional than I am, I want to thank them for their view point and knowledge, and if I have offend in the past in my questions I apologies.

[duchessofnc]

First let me say that even though I try to wear my kilt and kilt attire as traditionally as I can, I am one that chafes at some of the statements made by some of the “traditionalist.” In some cases it may rest on a semantically discussion, perhaps if the statements made were more in the vain of “traditionally” this was the way this article of attire of clothing was worn, rather than what I perceive as the more common the ‘that must not be worn it this way.”

I fully believe in traditions, but, I do believe that Emily Post and others of her group did a disservice to tradition when they seem to write “tradition” in stone. Tradition is simply what was done in the past. However, that past was not stagnant it changes and evolves. Who decides at what point that evolution stops?

McClef says that he graduated from St. Andrews’ in white tie in the day light. Ye Gads the man should be shot, white tie in the day light. Yes, and it was proper because this is the tradition at St. Andrews. I would like to have the time to really research this tradition. When the wearing of white tie for the graduation first started was it proper to wear white tie in the daylight for special occasions? Were the graduations at St. Andrews originally held in the evening so that the working/traveling family of the graduates could attend, and over the years the time of the graduation changed but the attire did not?

From what I have read and heard if we look at what is often called traditional highland attire would not have been worn 50 or 100 years before the tradition was “codified”. In addition what is often called traditional highland attire was not what would have been worn by the vast majority of Scottish people. The traditional attire is more what would have been worn by the upper class Scot and English. Do you think that the average Scottish farmer would have had brown belts and sporrans for day wear and run home to change into black leather at night?

I await to be corrected, but, what I often hear as the proper traditional way to wear highland attire is based on the requirements for attending society events, either day, evening or night. I’m know that I would not fit in local “society” much less 16th, 17th or 18th English society why should I be bound by their requirements? As I wear my kilts I will do so with respect to the heritage behind them, but not always to what I consider to be out dated traditions.

Last point, I respect those that are more traditional than I am, I want to thank them for their view point and knowledge, and if I have offend in the past in my questions I apologies.

You make some good points in your statement and I think everyone here agrees that yes there are always some exceptions to the rule, tradition is built upon what was commonly done. White tie in the middle of the day, while appropriate in some cases (such as graduating from St. Andrews), traditionally does not mean the rule.

Tradition is what is commonly done. Not the odd ball circumstance. For example, wearing a Tuxedo is commonly done at events in the evening, however, if a wedding is done in the middle of the day, of course a Tuxedo would be appropriate.

I think that tradition is being muddled and the answers being given here are based on what is commonly done. Now while I seem to have derailed this topic even further, out of curiosity.. what does this really have to do with wearing a PC in the daytime from a traditionalist stance?

[Phil]

I await to be corrected, but, what I often hear as the proper traditional way to wear highland attire is based on the requirements for attending society events, either day, evening or night. I’m know that I would not fit in local “society” much less 16th, 17th or 18th English society why should I be bound by their requirements? As I wear my kilts I will do so with respect to the heritage behind them, but not always to what I consider to be out dated traditions.

I am not sure that your contention here is entirely correct in that formal dress is not, and has never been, the exclusive preserve of English (and Scottish) high society. You only have to take in a few older movies to realise that Americans among many other nations also differentiated their dress according to the time of day. Think Fred Astaire "mussin' up his white tie". Dressing-down really only became the norm from the late 1960's onward when it became acceptable to attend an evening dance casually dressed. Before this a visit to the hire shop for a tux would have been necessary if one was to be allowed to join in. And it does not have to be just "society events". Who has not heard of "Sunday best" and the fact that nobody would have attended church on a Sunday in anything but their best clothes?
Just think of any type of function you might attend. If you are a woman you will probably go to the hairdresser, look for some new accessories, maybe even a new dress and shoes! What do some of us men do? Well we might take a shower, slap on some after-shave. Gee let's go to town and wear that new pair of socks just for the occasion! That is not only letting down your partner and everyone else there who has gone to a lot of trouble to look good, it is also letting yourself down. If you dress up in your finest clothes you are making a statement that you recognise and value the importance of the event and the people there. If, however, you wear clothing that has been on your back all day what then is special about it? It might as well be that old t-shirt or denim jacket. Perhaps this helps to explain why a PC should properly be worn as an evening jacket only. To do otherwise removes the purpose of having one in the first place.

[JSFMACLJR]

McClef says that he graduated from St. Andrews’ in white tie in the day light. Ye Gads the man should be shot, white tie in the day light. Yes, and it was proper because this is the tradition at St. Andrews. I would like to have the time to really research this tradition. When the wearing of white tie for the graduation first started was it proper to wear white tie in the daylight for special occasions? Were the graduations at St. Andrews originally held in the evening so that the working/traveling family of the graduates could attend, and over the years the time of the graduation changed but the attire did not?


.

I really should let McClef speak for himself, but what the graduates at St. Andrew's wear is NOT "white tie", as one would see on an invitation to a ball or whatever. That is something completely different, Students at the greater universities in Scotland and England wear what is called "subfusc." Subfusc consists of a dark suit, white shirt and collar, and white bow tie, in addition to the academic tat. Yes, the bow tie is white, but that does not mean one is wearing "white tie!" When most people say "white tie" they really mean full dress, or formal evening dress. A tail coat, white waistcoat, trousers with braid are worn with this rig. That certainly is not the case at St. Andrew's.

The white tie worn in academia is covered by a whole different set of traditions and rules, although the actual neck piece evolved from the same source as the tie worn with formal dress. You can read all sorts of articles about academic dress online. Check out the Burgon Society, if you are interested.

[DWFII]

This may get a little 'wind-blown" so be forewarned...

I got to thinking about some of this and it occurred to me that part of the problem is our collective sense of arrogance and self-absorption. We tend to think our times are the apex of history and our lives the crown of creation.

Yet, given the lifespan of human beings, nothing could be further from the truth.

Yes, some aspects of Traditional Highland Attire are focused on formal events...meetings with royalty and balls and so forth. At best these comprise a mixture of military uniforms and concessions to the conventions of the dominant culture in which these conventions arose, mixed in with common, everyday Highland garments. A graceful blend, in my opinion. But I doubt very much that Highlanders invented the Prince Charlie or even the Montrose or Sheriffmuir from whole cloth.

But the rest of the "kit" arose from the common man. And to the extent that the common culture of the Highlands mixed with the upper crust of English society a common sartorial ground was established.

But the point is, that this didn't happen in the course of one person's life. If we accept that the conventions of Highland Attire are still evolving, there must be more than 200 years of "tradition" and conventions that have transformed the Scottish Kilt into something more than the...goodness knows how transient...fad (?) that is so au currant.

Maybe that culture no longer exists in the minds of some people...what replaces it in "modern" times is even more problematic, however. If only because of the ephemeral nature of fashion and fads and human engagement.

What makes Traditional Highland attire so compelling is the very fact that it has survived...with its Traditions and conventions more or less intact (or changing only slowly and deliberately)...for 30 generations or more. With roots going back into the mists of time.

That alone is worthy of respect. That alone is worthy of extreme care that it not be diluted by popular culture and discontent.

[McClef]

I fully believe in traditions, but, I do believe that Emily Post and others of her group did a disservice to tradition when they seem to write “tradition” in stone. Tradition is simply what was done in the past. However, that past was not stagnant it changes and evolves. Who decides at what point that evolution stops?

This is precisely the problem - you see problems with tradition in Yentl and Fiddler on the Roof - where is it written and where is it fixed. Lenin declared that once the Bolsheviks had gained power that there was no need for further revolution. Many dress traditions when it comes to kilts were simply not available until the nineteenth century. And it was mainly royalty and the upper classes who set the original standards that others became expected to follow. They had the leisure and the social connections that enabled them to wear different things at different times of day with plenty of evening events where they could besport themselves. For many others, if they were lucky to have any kind of smart attire at all, it was reserved for "Sunday Best" or special occasions. And what was codified in the early decades of the 20th Century cannot be made the standard for all time in every circumstance.

McClef says that he graduated from St. Andrews’ in white tie in the day light. Ye Gads the man should be shot, white tie in the day light. Yes, and it was proper because this is the tradition at St. Andrews. I would like to have the time to really research this tradition. When the wearing of white tie for the graduation first started was it proper to wear white tie in the daylight for special occasions? Were the graduations at St. Andrews originally held in the evening so that the working/traveling family of the graduates could attend, and over the years the time of the graduation changed but the attire did not?

As I stated earlier I do not know how the tradition started or when but it most certainly does not go back to 1410 when it was founded. I would suspect it goes back to the 19th Century. I have not heard of graduations being originally evening events and with the families needing to travel to the event it's unlikely.

[Friday]

I am not sure that your contention here is entirely correct in that formal dress is not, and has never been, the exclusive preserve of English (and Scottish) high society. You only have to take in a few older movies to realise that Americans among many other nations also differentiated their dress according to the time of day.

What you say is true many nations differentiate their dress according to the time of day. However, my underlying question is the why is this tradition in place and should it apply to this occasion. As for "Fred Astaire 'mussin' up his white tie" why is Fred wearing a white tie? Did the rules for formal attire spontaneously appear in the US on its own or did the US "borrow" the dress codes from someone, for example the English?

Perhaps this helps to explain why a PC should properly be worn as an evening jacket only. To do otherwise removes the purpose of having one in the first place.

Wouldn't it be better to associate a piece of attire to a type of event rather than a time of day? Is a parade in which the local Scottish Society important enough to wear a PC even in the day time? Is an afternoon wedding important enough for a PC? From a very strict interpretation of rules of formal attire just taking my lady out for a special evening would not be reason enough for me to wear my PC, just as it would not be appropriate to wear a tails coat.


When I ask why, it is to understand the reason the original tradition came about. I have no problem breaking the rules, I just find I am better at it when I know the rules first.

[Jock Scot]

Friday.

I should have thought that a daytime wedding is far too important to attend wearing inappropriate attire, such as a PC. For the most formal of formal weddings, where morning dress is worn(top hat and tails) by the guests, then the black silver buttoned argyll is required. For any other day time wedding a tweed argyll is appropriate.

For a parade of a Scottish society during the day an argyll is worn.