Wearing a PC in the Daytime??

[Jock Scot]

To all,

There is currently another thread discussing how to improve XMTS

I think that the rather lively discussion here has illustrated the need for the addition of a couple of separate sub forums for modern kilt attire and classic / traditional kilt attire (1850 to 1960?).

I strongly believe that offense is not the intention on either side of this debate. It is abundantly obvious from the preceding posts that there are great differences in how the various members perceive formality in regards to attire.

Now instead of this thread finally collapsing into outright nastiness I propose a cease fire.

The original topic has been well covered so without further word from either side of the equation why don't we retire from these chambers.

I think that we all could use a nice breather and perhaps if these discussions where housed in more specific areas all could find either common ground or at least the agreement to disagree.

What of it Gentlemen and Ladies?

Shall we shake hands and let this go?

I am

Cheers

Jamie

I hope this does not break the peace treaty! Mods put this elsewhere if you feel you need to. Jamie you suggest different places for the different styles of kilt and that has to be worth a try. However I note in the thread above that you are suggesting "traditional kilt attire" from 1850 to 1960. You pose the date with a question mark ,so I assume this is up for debate? My suggestion is that "traditional kilt attire" should be open ended as I have pointed out on more than one occasion, it is worn today and therefore is current. Might I suggest the start a wee bit before your suggested date to coincide with the great tartan revival and have an open ended closing date to cover the traditional tartan kilt being worn by me at this present moment of time. Hope this helps and does not hinder.

[Panache]

I hope this does not break the peace treaty! Mods put this elsewhere if you feel you need to. Jamie you suggest different places for the different styles of kilt and that has to be worth a try. However I note in the thread above that you are suggesting "traditional kilt attire" from 1850 to 1960. You pose the date with a question mark ,so I assume this is up for debate? My suggestion is that "traditional kilt attire" should be open ended as I have pointed out on more than one occasion, it is worn today and therefore is current. Might I suggest the start a wee bit before your suggested date to coincide with the great tartan revival and have an open ended closing date to cover the traditional tartan kilt being worn by me at this present moment of time. Hope this helps and does not hinder.

Jock,

I think that perhaps this would be better addressed in the other thread as you are actually in the second to last sentence bringing up the entire issue we agreed to let be again.

Cheers

Jamie

[Jock Scot]

Jock,

I think that perhaps this would be better addressed in the other thread as you are actually in the second to last sentence bringing up the entire issue we agreed to let be again.

Cheers

Jamie

I can't quite fathom your thinking there Jamie, but for the sake of peace I will let it be.Sorry to bother you.

[The Wizard of BC]

If I can clear up a common misconception.

The Tuxedo was invented in 1896 as a less formal form of dress from Evening Wear.

The Tuxedo is only Black Tie. It consists of Black Worsted Jacket (Without tails) with Satin lapels.
The trousers now have a satin stripe down the legs but once did not.
It is worn closed without vest or open with vest.
The only appropriate tie is a Black Bow Tie.
The Shirt may have wing or fall color. It is fastened with studs instead of buttons and they should be black or matching the shirt.
The shoes should be black patent leather.

Tuxedo is only worn after 4:00pm or when going to or coming from an Evening event.



The THINGS that are worn today for Proms are not Tuxedo.

The Black Argyle Jacket with Silver diamond buttons is the equivalent of the Tuxedo.

Full Evening Dress is commonly called White Tie and Tails. It is still required for Noble Award Ceremony, Royal Balls, Opening Nights at many Opera, and in many parts of Europe for the most formal dinners.


The Jacket is always worn open with backless White vest. The shirt is a wing collar heavily starched and fastened with White studs.
The Tie is only white silk.
The Trousers have two rows of braid down the leg.
The shoes must be Black Patent Leather with a thin sole.

When outside Full Evening Dress should always includes Black Topcoat, top Hat, White or Kid Gloves, scarve and Cane.
The Full Evening Dress is only worn after 6:00pm


Full Formal dress for daytime wear is known as Morning Dress. That's as early in the day, not sad because someone has died.

There is no true equivalent for the Kilt to compare with Full Evening Dress but the Doublet is the Military version of it. The Doublet has tails front and rear where the Argyle has tails only in the rear.
I won't get into the wearing of Jabot but in all cases Jabot with just a hint of lace is correct. Jabot should never extend out of or in front of the Doublet.

[davedove]

The Tuxedo is only Black Tie. It consists of Black Worsted Jacket (Without tails) with Satin lapels.
The trousers now have a satin stripe down the legs but once did not.
It is worn closed without vest or open with vest.
The only appropriate tie is a Black Bow Tie.
The Shirt may have wing or fall color. It is fastened with studs instead of buttons and they should be black or matching the shirt.
The shoes should be black patent leather.

Tuxedo is only worn after 4:00pm or when going to or coming from an Evening event.

I can accept that as a good definition of tuxedo wear and classic black tie.

What also needs to be included is a relatively new category sometimes known as creative or festive black tie. It follows the same basic guidelines as black tie, but eases some of the restrictions and allows a more playful manner of dress. In this category, you would still have the basic tuxedo, but could wear the bright red tie, or the sparkly vest. I suppose some of the "unusual" outfits seen worn by celebrities would fall into this category.

What must be remembered is that, while this style is not "wrong", it is also not classic black tie. So, while one could wear classic black tie to a festive black tie event, one shouldn't do the opposite.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If I can clear up a common misconception.

The Tuxedo was invented in 1896 as a less formal form of dress from Evening Wear.

Pooles, of Saville Row, made the first such jacket for the Prince of Wales in 1865, and on October 10th, 1886 it made its first American appearance when Griswald P. Lorillard wore one to a rather grand party in Tuxedo Park, New York. (Which is why Americans call them "Tuxedos", rather than dinner jackets, or smoking jackets.)

That they are called "dinner jackets", is somewhat erroneous, as they were intended to be worn "after" dinner when relaxing with one's friends, smoking a cigar, or playing billiards. These were also quite popular (thanks to the PoW) with the bridge playing set-- not only were they comfortable, they had pockets for conveniently holding cigarettes and other smokers requisites. They gained over all social acceptance as a "less formal" jacket for intimate dinner parties in the early 20th century.

The Tuxedo is only Black Tie. It consists of Black Worsted Jacket (Without tails) with Satin lapels.
The trousers now have a satin stripe down the legs but once did not.

From it's inception the trousers worn with a dinner jacket (tuxedo jacket in the USA) have had a satin stripe over the outside seam of the leg. The omission of the stripe was briefly considered fashionable in the post WWII era.

It is worn closed without vest or open with vest.
The only appropriate tie is a Black Bow Tie.
The Shirt may have wing or fall color. It is fastened with studs instead of buttons and they should be black or matching the shirt.
The shoes should be black patent leather.

Tuxedo is only worn after 4:00pm

Actually that's 6PM; if an event starts before 6pm, regardless of when it might end, a dark business suit is appropriate. Theoretically an event should always begin at 7PM, with the hour between 6 and 7PM given over for travel.

or when going to or coming from an Evening event.



The THINGS that are worn today for Proms are not Tuxedo.

The Black Argyle Jacket with Silver diamond buttons is the equivalent of the Tuxedo.

As is any other Highland formal jacket worn with black tie or jabot.

Full Evening Dress is commonly called White Tie and Tails. It is still required for Noble Award Ceremony, Royal Balls, Opening Nights at many Opera, and in many parts of Europe for the most formal dinners.


The Jacket is always worn open with backless White vest. The shirt is a wing collar heavily starched and fastened with White studs.
The Tie is only white silk.

White cotton pique ties have universally replaced the white silk tie as they hold their shape better and give a softer look to the collar.

The Trousers have two rows of braid down the leg.
The shoes must be Black Patent Leather with a thin sole.

When outside Full Evening Dress should always includes Black Topcoat, top Hat, White or Kid Gloves, scarve and Cane.
The Full Evening Dress is only worn after 6:00pm


Full Formal dress for daytime wear is known as Morning Dress. That's as early in the day, not sad because someone has died.

The kilted equivalent of "formal morning dress" is a black Argyll jacket, black waistcoat, white shirt, light grey silk tie, silver mounted fur sporran, tartan hose, black shoes.

There is no true equivalent for the Kilt to compare with Full Evening Dress but the Doublet is the Military version of it. The Doublet has tails front and rear where the Argyle has tails only in the rear.
I won't get into the wearing of Jabot but in all cases Jabot with just a hint of lace is correct. Jabot should never extend out of or in front of the Doublet.

Others have already addressed this point.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I can accept that as a good definition of tuxedo wear and classic black tie.

What also needs to be included is a relatively new category sometimes known as creative or festive black tie. It follows the same basic guidelines as black tie, but eases some of the restrictions and allows a more playful manner of dress. In this category, you would still have the basic tuxedo, but could wear the bright red tie, or the sparkly vest. I suppose some of the "unusual" outfits seen worn by celebrities would fall into this category.

What must be remembered is that, while this style is not "wrong", it is also not classic black tie. So, while one could wear classic black tie to a festive black tie event, one shouldn't do the opposite.

I have a slight "problem" with this, and it has nothing to do with a bright red tie, or a sparkly vest (or wearing clown shoes for that matter).

It's about "easing the restrictions", which to me seems to be PC speak for "dumbing down". The problem, as I see it, is where does one draw the line? Let's start with "creative" black tie.

Dinner jacket with Levis and cowboy boots = creative? Okay, now add a western shirt. Are we still being creative? How about a bolo tie instead of a bow tie? Still "creative black tie"?

See, the problem is that there is no "definition" to the word "creative". In finger painting the "definition" is also the boundary-- in this instance the edge of the paper. But in dress, especially formal dress, if you don't have a solid definition, you have no boundary, and it becomes a situation where the wearer assumes an entitlement to dress as they please, irrespective of the wishes of their host or hostess. Their justification (or cop out) being their sense of "creativity".

"Festive" black tie is a different kettle of fish. To begin with, black tie ocassions usually are "festive events"-- who has ever been invited to a black tie funeral? If the event is, say, a Christmas Party any self-assured gentleman would be quite comfortable in placing a sprig of holly in his lapel, or showing up at the door in dinner jacket and santa hat-- that's called "flair", and there is nothing wrong it, or with having having a bit of fun.

But this brings us back to the question of definition. When does "festive black tie" drift across the double yellow line of "appropriate attire" and have a head on collision with "social convention"? Well, driving becomes dangerous when people ignore the rules of the road, and that applies to dress sense as well. The very phrase "festive black tie" implies that you can't have a perfectly good time unless you arrive at the event in some sort of themed attire. Which is nonsense.

So, do we need to include a "relatively new category" in the encyclopedia of formal attire? No. Because wearing formal attire isn't about calling attention to how you are dressed. Formal attire is about calling attention to you as a person, because you are dressed like everyone else in the room, and people will focus on you, rather than how you are dressed.

Formal attire is about your personality, not the clown shoes you wore as part of your creatively festive attire.

If I've stepped on anyone's toes I'm sorry. But guys, that's what'll happen to you if you choose to wear clown shoes to a black tie event.

[Bugbear]

...The Doublet has tails front and rear where the Argyle has tails only in the rear. ...

I wanted so much to drop out of this thread, but I just have to be sure; can't look at the pictures.

Does the dress Argyle have tails, or am I misunderstanding what this means?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I wanted so much to drop out of this thread, but I just have to be sure; can't look at the pictures.

Does the dress Argyle have tails, or am I misunderstanding what this means?

Ted,

No tails on an Argyll jacket; the skirt, which is sever inches below the wearer's waist, is cut evenly all the way around, just like a regular (non-kilt) jacket. What makes an Argyll an Argyll are the gauntlet cuffs, epaulets, and scalloped flaps over the pocket.

A Dress Argyll jacket is always made out of dark (usually black) fine, or superfine wool barathea, or occasionally tartan cut on the bias.

When made from tweed, or in a lighter shade fabric (grey, sky blue, etc.) it is suitable for day wear, or casual evening wear.

A Prince Charlie coatee has tails-- the bottom edge of the jacket ends at the wearer's waist, with two slightly overlapping "tails" centered in the back, and reaching down for about a 10-12 inches, depending on the height of the wearer.

Does that help?
Scott

[Bugbear]

Ted,

No tails on an Argyll jacket; the skirt, which is sever inches below the wearer's waist, is cut evenly all the way around, just like a regular (non-kilt) jacket. What makes an Argyll an Argyll are the gauntlet cuffs, epaulets, and scalloped flaps over the pocket.

A Dress Argyll jacket is always made out of dark (usually black) fine, or superfine wool barathea, or occasionally tartan cut on the bias.

When made from tweed, or in a lighter shade fabric (grey, sky blue, etc.) it is suitable for day wear, or casual evening wear.

A Prince Charlie coatee has tails-- the bottom edge of the jacket ends at the wearer's waist, with two slightly overlapping "tails" centered in the back, and reaching down for about a 10-12 inches, depending on the height of the wearer.

Does that help?
Scott

Absolutely it helps; thank you.
And I see a bit of information, new to me, about the tartan cut on the bias for a dress Argyle. It's all very interesting.