"But I Don't Have Enough Money!"

[wvpiper]

traditional, 16 oz, eight yard kilt. ....... a traditional kilt later on. ................the traditional kilt,...............up for a traditional, 16 oz, eight yarder.

, you don't have to be wealthy to be properly dressed in traditional Scottish attire.

Of course, you don't need 8 yards to be 'traditional' either. I was kind of hoping Matt would debate that point, but, I guess the purpose of your thread is about quality. On that we can all agree

[Bugbear]

Of course, you don't need 8 yards to be 'traditional' either. I was kind of hoping Matt would debate that point, but, I guess the purpose of your thread is about quality. On that we can all agree

No, I think the box pleated kilts are traditional. However, I did not specify exactly what I was talking about in any of my posts.

I think the traditional knife pleated kilt has a bit more swing than the regular box pleat. I have considered the double box pleat, which has a swing and a bounce to it from what I have read, but that is not exactly traditional; probably not an issue either.

It has become more about the tartan to me, but also I care much, much more about the internal construction of the kilt, than yardage.

All that being said, the fabric cost is a little lower in the box pleat; I don't completely factor the cost out of my planning.

[O'Callaghan]

I don't own any pure wool kilts, nor any handsewn kilts, but I don't own a 'contemporary' kilt either. I suppose this puts me in the 'cheap kilts' bracket.

To be honest, I could go out and buy a 16oz wool hand-sewn 8yd kilt right now. I have the money, but I can think of several reasons not to get one:

1) Where would I wear such a thing? I have no plans to attend a Burns supper or other traditional Scottish dinner any time soon (i.e. probably never), not least because I'm not Scottish (although I am ethnically Irish).

2) My wife would have kittens if I ever spent that much on clothing. Probably I should have made this reason number 1!

3) I like Velcro! (Not an original reason, someone else said the same).

4) 8yd kilts are heavy (I do have one, but it's not 100% wool, and nor is it hand-sewn).

5) Summers here are 90 degrees F combined with 90 % humidity. Not a great or even good climate for 16oz wool. It definitely isn't Scottish weather.

6) If I spent that much on a garment I would be afraid to wear it.

7) I'm not going to spend that much without getting the Callaghan tartan, and it's special order, which bumps the cost even more.

[DWFII]

Priorities...priorities.

We give lip-service to the idea that a person should "buy the best they can afford." And rightfully so.

But to do that a person has to do more than just peer into the dark recesses of his wallet and declare that $50.00 is the limit. Before a person can determine what he/she can afford they have to determine what "best " means.

I am a great believer in "good, better, best." I know that many in our society would reject such a notion out of hand but I am not so self-satisfied that I do not to always aspire to the next level.

Now, I venture to say that virtually every single contributor to Xmarks bought the computer they log in on. They had to do at least enough research to know that a $50.00 TI calculator was not gonna meet their needs nor their aspirations. I spent over $2000.00 on each of my last four computers and each one was "cutting edge technology" at the time I bought it. I knew it was cutting edge because I did the research. And in doing so I came to know what was good, what was better, and what was best.

I understood the meaning of the word "quality" as it applied to computers, in other words.

And I did the same thing with kilts. That forced me to slow down and not try to satisfy my "itch" so immediately that I completely overlooked the differences between good, better, & best. What I found out was that wool kilts are often heirlooms. But the $50.00-quality kilt was not often, if ever, in even in the running.

A computer generally costs, oh, roughly in the neighborhood of a traditional kilt. Many will blithely shell out two grand for a computer but kick and scream at spending more than $100 on a kilt.

If a kilt costs $50.00 and we throw it away...or perhaps, more likely, get bored with it...after a couple of years, it has still cost $25.00 a year. If I spend $500.00 on a 16 ounce, 10 yard wool kilt and I wear it for five years and my grandson wears it for twenty years and his son inherits it and never wears it...that's still less, on an annual basis, than the cost of a $50.00 kilt. And the great grandchild still has something of value.

Maybe you can wear a denim kilt for five years and pass it on to your grandson...but begs a crucial question--will he want it?

On the other hand, perhaps it's all a matter of commitment...?? and a lifetime of kilting and passing it on isn't really in the cards anyway.

[JelicoCat]

Must be nice to be able to spend 2 grand on a computer.

[TheKiltedWonder]

A computer generally costs, oh, roughly in the neighborhood of a traditional kilt. Many will blithely shell out two grand for a computer but kick and scream spending more than $100 on a kilt.

I don't think it's quite fair to compare the two. I find a computer somewhat more useful on a daily basis than, say, a kilt. If I need something to keep my legs warm and myself decent, then there are always pants. In my line of work, a computer is necessary. I could forgo buying a computer, but it would mean that I'd also need to find a new job -- something I wouldn't relish doing in this economy.

Something I find interesting about this thread: the discussion seems to be focused solely on quality itself, i.e. choosing high quality over low quality. To my mind, if someone can't justify spendng 5,6 or 700 dollars plus on a garment, then that's fair enough; they needn't buy it. If you can only manage to spend 100 or 200 hundred on a kilt, then by all means, buy one in that price range (not that anyone was, or should be, asking for my permission).

The more important conversation in my mind looks at quality versus quantity. Back when I posted here regularly I remember reading several posts where people would complain about the high cost of a traditional kilt. Later in another post they would mention owning a half dozen kilts that were cheaper (cost-wise). If they had simply saved that amount of money, they could have purchased one or two handmade kilts. Perhaps they wanted variety or didn't care for traditional kilts, that's fine--but they shouldn't have complained that they couldn't afford such a kilt.

[RockyR]

I've gotten into this one late, so please allow me to respond to Scotus directly (as well as others)

I agree that people should save up to buy a nice kilt. Nicer kilts last longer and look... well... nicer. Heck, on our site under the 'questions to ask yourself' page, we ask people to think about it hard and long and buy the nicest kilt they can afford. I really do appreciate my 8 yard wool kilts more than my Semi Trads. THAT BEING SAID, I disagree with this statement:

They claim that buying cheaper kilts will get them enthused about buying a traditional kilt later on.

As one of the VERY FEW companies that market to the low priced kilt market AND the high priced kilt market, I can give first hand observations that very few can give. Are there those just wanting a 'cheap kilt', never to buy another? You bet. However, there are MANY customers we've had over the years who have started out with a casual kilt ($100 ish) and moved up the ladder to nicer and nicer kilts, ending up with 8 yard wool kilts. MANY people have said to me something to this effect: "If I wouldn't have bought that first Casual, I would have never known how much I enjoy wearing kilts and ended up buying an 8 Yard Wool".

Does EVERY customer who buys a casual move up the ladder to a nicer kilt? No. Do a higher percentage than most people think do it? Yes.

Heck... Using MYSELF as an example. I bought 2 very low priced kilts 5 years ago (1 contemporary and 1 tartan). They got me hooked enough to start making them and marketing them... then practice made me better at what I do. Now I own several DOZEN kilts, most of them tanks... and a kilt company.

The other point I'd like to raise is one that's not 100% 'on topic' in the Traditional forum, but I'll raise it anyway. Less expensive kilts have their place as do 8 yarders. If I wanted to change my truck's oil, I wouldn't do so in a 'tank', but I WOULD do it in a UK Workmans. Different tools for different jobs.

Would you wear a 'tux' to cut grass? Would you wear Jeans to a black tie affair?

Again, I agree that nice kilts SHOULD be an investment and people SHOULD try to own at least one in their lifetime. That being said, other 'models' have their place as well.

[Maggie Pringlemeir]

Ladies and Gents ..

May a newbie to this board make her first post here? I'm finding it fascinating to read the spirited discussion to this thread. There ARE a few things I'd like to comment on, please.

First .. speaking from my own experience years ago as a sales rep .. many good companies found that if they brought out their newest items at a particular market .. within a few weeks, they were knocked off .. copied in cheaper fabrics with lower quality construction. From what I've been given to understand .. the business of making kilts in the UK has been affected in much the same way. The difference is that with kilts .. the garments are traditional, there's nothing really NEW so they're even easier to copy. Please .. BEFORE you consider buyiing that cheaper kilt .. find out WHERE it is made and WHERE the fabric is woven. You might be surprised to find just how much is now coming in from the Orient. The gentleman from Scotsweb referred to this as "Tartan Tat". Part of the REASON they are so much less pricey .. is that many of those goods are made by prison labor and by child labor. It's very much like the USA was back in the early 1800's .. before the Shirtwaist Company fire and the subsequent development of Child Safety Advocacy and the beginnings of Unions in the Mills.

Second .. I agree that it's wonderful and charming and A Very Good Thing, as Martha would say, to purchase the fabric for your kilt from one of the legitimate suppliers in the UK .. because they field the weaving out to the weavers in the crofts, same as it was done in the 1800's there. I'd like to suggest, gently, that maybe, just maybe, if you checked around, you could find a weaver here in the US who can make that fabric for you. Again, you might be amazed at how MANY folks here weave. The very thing that drew me into learning how to weave .. was the desire to be able to weave my own tartan sash. Corney, perhaps, but true.

Third .. To the folks who wrote about wearing District Tartans .. YES!! I've been studying tartans for a long time and it's amazing at how many there are that are NOT related to a specific clan. How wonderfully practical this is.

Fourth .. Yes, I DO know that women do NOT wear the kilt. I want to weave myself an arisaid .. when I get a wider loom to weave it on. My floor loom is only 22 inches and my largest table loom is 25 iinches. But I SEE it in my mind's eye .. and I will hold onto that picture in my spirit and wait .. until I have the proper equipment and the proper supplies to make it and make it properly. Which IS, I think, the entire purpose of this thread. To encourage those wanting a kilt .. to consider it carefully and realize that you get what you pay for, and quality ALWAYS winds up costing less, in the long run.

On all THAT, dear and gentle folk .. I think I'm talked out.

Warm hugs and Blessings of the Three upon ye and your families

Maggie & Ruby C
in Novi, MI .. and he says WOOF!

[O'Callaghan]

Priorities...priorities.

We give lip-service to the idea that a person should "buy the best they can afford." And rightfully so.

But to do that a person has to do more than just peer into the dark recesses of his wallet and declare that $50.00 is the limit. Before a person can determine what he/she can afford they have to determine what "best " means.

I am a great believer in "good, better, best." I know that many in our society would reject such a notion out of hand but I am not so self-satisfied that I do not to always aspire to the next level.

Now, I venture to say that virtually every single contributor to Xmarks bought the computer they log in on. They had to do at least enough research to know that a $50.00 TI calculator was not gonna meet their needs nor their aspirations. I spent over $2000.00 on each of my last four computers and each one was "cutting edge technology" at the time I bought it. I knew it was cutting edge because I did the research. And in doing so I came to know what was good, what was better, and what was best.

I understood the meaning of the word "quality" as it applied to computers, in other words.

And I did the same thing with kilts. That forced me to slow down and not try to satisfy my 'itch" so immediately I completely overlooks the differences between good, better best. What I found out was that kilts are often heirlooms. But the $50.00 quality kilt was not often, if ever, in that category.

A computer generally costs, oh, roughly in the neighborhood of a traditional kilt. Many will blithely shell out two grand for a computer but kick and scream spending more than $100 on a kilt.

If a kilt costs $50.00 and we throw it away...or perhaps, more likely, get bored with it...after a couple of years, it has still cost $25.00 a year. If I spend $500.00 on a 16 ounce, 10 yard wool kilt and I wear it for five years and my grandson wears it for twenty years and his son inherits it and never wears it...that's still less, on an annual basis, than the cost of a $50.00 kilt. And the great grandchild still has something of value.

Maybe you can wear a denim kilt for five years and pass it on to your grandson...but begs a crucial question--will he want it?

On the other hand, perhaps it's all a matter of commitment...?? and a lifetime of kilting and passing it on isn't really in the cards anyway.

The laptop here cost $600 new maybe five years ago. Unless it breaks down I can't think of a single reason to replace it. It would need four times as much RAM to run Vista, but I can't think of any reason to get that either.

I am at even more of a loss to know why I'd need a $2,000 computer than a $600 kilt.

Could it be that I'm just thrifty? And I thought I didn't have any Scottish blood!

[DWFII]

When someone says that $50.00 is the limit that they want to spend on a kilt, it is almost certain to be a matter of priorities. If they only have $50.00...and that's their last penny...and/or no hope of earning more, they shouldn't be buying a kilt at any price, much less a computer.

I will admit that in retrospect, $2000.00 is a lot to spend on a compute. More than I would probably spend today. [My first computer cost $2600.00 and had 4 megabytes of ram. My latest cost just under $2000.00 and has 4 gigabytes of ram.] But my priorities were different then--I wanted to play the latest games, I did a bunch of graphics and photowork and created web pages. I thought I needed all that power and, as I said, I had done the research and knew what I was getting. But, read my previous posts in this thread and you understand that on 19th century wages, I had to save hard to buy those computers.

I might add, parenthetically, that I've never regretted spending that much on a computer--what I learned about computers was worth a lot more than I spent. and with that knowledge, I helped others and built a business and created websites for my Guild...etc.. I wonder if there isn't some similar mechanism at work with immersing yourself in the details of traditional Highland Attire?"

The main point, then as now, is that quality does indeed trump all else...in my opinion. If not, we give the lie to the bit about buying the "best quality you can afford"

The corollary is that most of us who can afford computers..at any price level and at any wage level...can also afford a "better" quality kilt if we want one. So it's really not a matter of poverty...all the poor-mouthing aside...but of priorities.