"But I Don't Have Enough Money!"

[Scotus]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Lads and Lasses:

I started this thread in the Traditional Kilts section for a reason. I wanted to discuss cost and encourage those who wanted to save for a traditional kilt to do so, rather than continuing to buy cheaper ones "in the meantime." That is, save your money. I have a right to my opinion.

While I understand the natural tendency for the contemporary kilt crowd to come over to the Traditional Kilts section to laud and magnify the virtues of the contemporary or less expensive kilts, I think this is a temptation that should have been avoided.

Not once have I gone to the Contemporary & Non-Traditional Kilts section of this forum in order to laud and magnify the glories of the traditional kilt, as I know that isn't the place for it. When someone brings up a discussion in that section of the forum, I know it's not the General Kilt Talk section and that anything I might want to say in regard to the quality of traditional kilts, as opposed to contemporary kits, would be inappropriate and best left unsaid. When someone posts in that section about Utilikilts or USA kilts, etc., I don't make posts that say, "You should not buy those. Instead, you should buy a traditional kilt for the following reasons..." That would be rude.

No matter how many times I've repeated this, it has gone unheeded. I'm sorry if my original post wasn't clear enough. I don't think it was a provocative post; at least it wasn't meant to be. I'm a plain spoken Midwesterner. Again, I posted in this section so that people would know it wasn't the place to post on what they liked about non-traditional, contemporary or less expensive kilts. Alas, I guess some people simply want to argue and get their point across no matter what.

I shall say no more and post no longer in this thread.

[DWFII]

Rocky,

My experience is just the opposite.

I used to teach flyfishing and flycasting through my local FlyFishers of America and the Community College. I would hand out pamphlets before the classes started detailing what kinds of rods and reels were of good, better and best quality. The list went from about $100.00 for a decent Fenwick starter kit (rod, reel and line) to close to $1000.00. But I had cast on all of them and knew that they all had the necessary dynamics ("action") to do the job.

I never did expect, or encounter anyone, who was an absolute greenhorn to came to the first day of class with the $1000.00 outfit but I had plenty who ignored my recommendations entirely (why take a class at all if you are going to do it your way in the first place?) and came to class with cheap fly/spin combos.

Now I can cast a fly rod...I can even cast a fly line without a fly rod...but I couldn't cast those fly/spin combos very well and the students not at all.

The upshot was that they couldn't learn to flycast or flyfish. And since they'd spent money both on the class and the equipment, they were frustrated. And inevitably they would drop out and never come back. Probably never try their hand at flyfishing, again, either.

Maybe you see the few who do come back after having bought a low priced kilt to buy a better quality kilt, because you offer that range. But how many who buy a low priced kilt never come back? I suspect that the numbers would be very revealing...simply because that's human nature.

It's also human nature to characterize those who have learned to cast a fly rod, or who do prefer traditional kilts, as "elitists"...or some variation. Sour grapes.

[DWFII]

No matter how many times I've repeated this, it has gone unheeded. I'm sorry if my original post wasn't clear enough. I don't think it was a provocative post; at least it wasn't meant to be. I'm a plain spoken Midwesterner. Again, I posted in this section so that people would know it wasn't the place to post on what they liked about non-traditional, contemporary or less expensive kilts. Alas, I guess some people simply want to argue and get their point across no matter what.

I shall say no more and post no longer in this thread.

Cheer up my friend, they're only over here because this is the most interesting and stimulating and dynamic section of the forum. And because deep down they are dissatisfied with their lower priced/lower quality choices.

[DWFII]

Ladies and Gents ..

May a newbie to this board make her first post here? I'm finding it fascinating to read the spirited discussion to this thread. There ARE a few things I'd like to comment on, please.

BTW, welcome, Maggie. I like your attitude.

[O'Callaghan]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Lads and Lasses:

I started this thread in the Traditional Kilts section for a reason. I wanted to discuss cost and encourage those who wanted to save for a traditional kilt to do so, rather than continuing to buy cheaper ones "in the meantime." That is, save your money. I have a right to my opinion.

While I understand the natural tendency for the contemporary kilt crowd to come over to the Traditional Kilts section to laud and magnify the virtues of the contemporary or less expensive kilts, I think this is a temptation that should have been avoided.

Not once have I gone to the Contemporary & Non-Traditional Kilts section of this forum in order to laud and magnify the glories of the traditional kilt, as I know that isn't the place for it. When someone brings up a discussion in that section of the forum, I know it's not the General Kilt Talk section and that anything I might want to say in regard to the quality of traditional kilts, as opposed to contemporary kits, would be inappropriate and best left unsaid. When someone posts in that section about Utilikilts or USA kilts, etc., I don't make posts that say, "You should not buy those. Instead, you should buy a traditional kilt for the following reasons..." That would be rude.

No matter how many times I've repeated this, it has gone unheeded. I'm sorry if my original post wasn't clear enough. I don't think it was a provocative post; at least it wasn't meant to be. I'm a plain spoken Midwesterner. Again, I posted in this section so that people would know it wasn't the place to post on what they liked about non-traditional, contemporary or less expensive kilts. Alas, I guess some people simply want to argue and get their point across no matter what.

I shall say no more and post no longer in this thread.

I think part of the problem is that you seem to think cheap kilts automatically belong with contemporary kilts and not with traditional kilts. Not everyone agrees.

If you hope to control the content of replies on an Internet forum, you are usually going to be dissappointed.

[Bugbear]

Well, Scotus, for what it's worth, you did get me thinking about a eight yard, knife pleated traditional kilt, in my tartan of course, again. Perhaps I will need to start saving up all over again after I have the box pleated kilt made, in my tartan of course, and any accessories that I scrounge up for one will do just as well for the other.

I am in no hurry because I rarely wear the kilt in the first place. On top of that, I have been thinking way, way too much about formal attire while trying to learn about and understand it, and I think that is where the balance of all costs are; especially if you throw in the DIY and adaptation angle.

[DWFII]

I think part of the problem is that you seem to think cheap kilts automatically belong with contemporary kilts and not with traditional kilts. Not everyone agrees.

If you hope to control the content of replies on an Internet forum, you are usually going to be dissappointed.

First may I say...with all due respect...that most folks who post in this sub-forum do agree with Scotus. I think it is implied in the title of the sub-forum. After all, a Traditional Kilt is almost always made of worsted wool (weren't some made of silk?) and certain construction techniques which, combined with the material, place it in a different price category than other processes. I suspect that any kilt made of wool that costs $80.00 a yard and techniques that require a fair amount of extraordinary skill would, by default, no longer be a "cheap kilt."

Second...and this has already been discussed by the mods, but it seems to bear repeating every so often as it applies to all of Xmarks...it is wise to refrain from using the word "you" except in the most generalized sense. Especially when differing with someone, I think it is far better to relate your own experiences and/or likes and dislikes than to characterize the flaws in someone else's opinions. Especially when that narrows down to one particular person.

I hope you don't think I am being censorious. I do not intend it that way--just offering a little different perspective...maybe.

[wyldathart]

I took the middle road ... Kinda. I saved up and went for the high quality 8 yrd but had to go with 13oz instead of 16oz. And I went with a package deal that I paired out items that I could get cheaper here at home, Like brogues and dress shirt. In my case I wanted the package so I could attend my college graduation smartly kilted. In my case, time was somewhat of a factor being that I don't have the time to space out my purchases. So somewhere near April 23 I'll be getting my first Kilt, maybe not a "Tank" but pretty close anyway

[RockyR]

Rocky,

My experience is just the opposite....

SNIP

Maybe you see the few who do come back after having bought a low priced kilt to buy a better quality kilt, because you offer that range. But how many who buy a low priced kilt never come back? I suspect that the numbers would be very revealing...simply because that's human nature.

It's also human nature to characterize those who have learned to cast a fly rod, or who do prefer traditional kilts, as "elitists"...or some variation. Sour grapes.

Please know that I'm not posting this with any malice or anger, just in the friendly spirit of discussion...

I do NOT have any 'hard numbers' for who bought what kind of kilt and then came back or didn't come back. I WILL say that I've seen a definite upswing in the past 3 years of more and more people buying higher end kilts. Is this due to our company's growth or due to more 'discerning' customers? Not sure... I'm just 'calling it like I see it'.

Using your example: I would actually be surprised (not disagreeing... just stating surprise) if all of your students who bought $100 fly fishing rods and enjoy the sport and TRIED your $1000 or $2000 fishing rod didn't see / feel the difference and WANT to upgrade to a better rod later. When I started buying Stereo equipment (for car or home theatre of whatever) at age 18, I bought less expensive items. Now that I'm a bit older and more discerning, I look at nicer stereos. That seems to be able to fit into WHATEVER field we write about.

There's different ways to interperet the numbers for different trends and different ways to think about things. As I said above, we offer the full range, so I know see a broader spectrum than most. I try to explain the differences to our customers and show them the reasons to get a nicer kilt, but ultimately, it's up to them to decide as they're the one with the wallet.

Do I think there is a percentage of people who would have bought a higher end kilt if the lower priced one wasn't available? Yes. However, I think a MUCH higher percentage would have walked out of the store with NOTHING if they didn't have a lower priced alternative. (RHETORICAL QUESTION) Which is the 'lessor of the two evils', having MUCH fewer people in kilts, but having them be 8 yarders OR having more people in kilts, but some are 'synthetic material' and some are 8 yarders? Personally, I'd rather see more people in kilts, as long as they don't look 'sloppy'.

Also, I stand by my statement about it bringing a percentage of those people UP the ladder. Bottom line... it's a difference of opinion about the effect. Unfortunately, there probably won't be any kind of 'hard data' to back any of this up, so it will have to remain, as it is, 2 differing opinions.

I mean no disrespect to those in the Traditional Forum by talking about non-traditional (not 8 yard wool) kilts. However, a statement was made that I disagreed with and wanted to address in a civil and thoughtful manner. That is what the spirit of this forum is all about!

I continue to wear both traditional and other kind of kilts and love each for different reasons.

Back to the discussion about saving up for a NICE 8 yard tank. As I said before... I think every true kilt lover should get at least one in their lifetime. It is truly a wonderful thing.

[wvpiper]

No, I think the box pleated kilts are traditional. However, I did not specify exactly what I was talking about in any of my posts.
..................It has become more about the tartan to me,

I was quoting Scotus, and referring to his post, but, since you brought Tartan into it.
Clan Tartan has no historical basis in tradition, either.
I won't argue that point too strongly, I realize that now they are identified with clans. Wasn't always the case that all members of the clan wore the same tartan, or even tartan at all. Solid colors and tweed were also worn.
That said, I see nothing wrong with wearing a 4 or 5 yard kilt, solid, tartan tweed or otherwise. It is true quality of material and construction will matter-
Yardage doesn't matter, tartan doesn't matter per say either.