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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by wvpiper View Post
    I was quoting Scotus, and referring to his post, but, since you brought Tartan into it.
    Clan Tartan has no historical basis in tradition, either.
    I won't argue that point too strongly, I realize that now they are identified with clans. Wasn't always the case that all members of the clan wore the same tartan, or even tartan at all. Solid colors and tweed were also worn.
    That said, I see nothing wrong with wearing a 4 or 5 yard kilt, solid, tartan tweed or otherwise. It is true quality of material and construction will matter-
    Yardage doesn't matter, tartan doesn't matter per say either.


    Ya, my tartan is not a clan tartan and was designed in this century, though designed by a Scot. It does seem to be hinted at that one would be saving up for One kilt, and it follows that one would need to have decided on a single tartan. I feel somewhat about my tartan as if it were like a clan tartan so it is easy for me to decide that. Others might want to wear several tartans, both clan and non-clan, and it follows that several kilts would be required.

    As to the box pleat VS eight yard, I jumped in because I brought up the subject in the second post... almost as a suggestion or alternative. It is the construction and type of material used that is important in the kilt, as you say.
    I tried to ask my inner curmudgeon before posting, but he sprayed me with the garden hose…
    Yes, I have squirrels in my brain…

  2. #82
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    Gentlepeople,

    I agree with the original post of this thread. Far too many cries " I can't afford.... " etc.
    My first kilt was a traditional hand sewn tartan kilt. I did not buy it, it was passed down to me with a family history. The original owner was born about 1810. He was married in this kilt in 1833. The kilt is supposed to have been sewn about 1828 when he was 18 years old. The kilt has passed down to me as the fifth wearer. The wool is somewhere around 18 to 20 oz., the finish is rough, the pleats are narrow and crisp. The straps are well worn and the three buckles were hand made and have slight variations in their look. The kilt is very similar, but not the same in construction as the new traditional kilt.This kilt has only been worn for very important occasions. I would never wear it to work, or any other place that would be a presumed hazard to it. It is worn in the manner that Scotus, or Jock Scot, DWF II, would be proud of. Enough of the history, ...sort of. I know full well that a lot of sacrifice was made by the whole family so that the eldest son could go forward in life with this significant piece of Highland attire. The occasions that I did wear this very heavy garment were very sensual in that it was a reminder of the value of sacrifice and saving that has also been passed down with it.
    Due to much abundance, I no longer can strap this garment around me, and have already passed it and its history on to the next generation. I have bespoke a new hand sewn wool tartan kilt to fit this substantial frame. It too will be passed on for many generations, I hope. It was well worth saving for, and when all is said and done and it arrives in my hands, I will strap it on and post some pictures and a lot of its detail. This one is being sewn in Scotland, of Scottish wool, from a weaver in Scotland. It has been ordered through a forum sponsor. It will not be the last "Tank" that I buy.
    There is nothing else to really compare with it. So this is why we have a traditional kilts forum on X-Marks the Scot.
    I will use other fora to discuss my semi-trad, and my contemporary garments, as they have their place.
    The opening post may have used the wrong garment for the cheaper image, as I would have used the faux traditional that is the tartan tat of the Royal Mile as the focus of the cheaper, and obviously less quality garment.
    I hope I have not offended anyone, as that is not the intent, but to post my take on the Quality Traditional Kilt.
    Cheers,
    Steve
    Last edited by SteveB; 14th March 09 at 07:54 PM. Reason: typo time

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyR View Post
    Please know that I'm not posting this with any malice or anger, just in the friendly spirit of discussion...
    [snip]
    I mean no disrespect to those in the Traditional Forum by talking about non-traditional (not 8 yard wool) kilts. However, a statement was made that I disagreed with and wanted to address in a civil and thoughtful manner. That is what the spirit of this forum is all about!
    I don't think you conveyed any disrespect.

    Of course there's a lot more to Traditional kilts than quality or price. Tradition, itself, not being the least of it. But as a bespoke...and maybe just as importantly , a "hands-on"...maker of "durable goods," I think of "quality" as being a blend of materials and skill. With a bias towards skill.

    Best quality, then will always be best materials combined with best skills. I can easily accommodate the concept of lesser quality in my hierarchy of "good, better, best." but I have a saying that I have become known for amongst my peers, namely that "a few mistakes are merely human but enough of them in one place and they add up to ugly."

    So there is a point at which cheap materials and indifferent skills nearly define "shoddy." [BTW, the word "shoddy" originates during the Civil War when woolen mills swept up the small, otherwise unusable clippings and felted them into a cloth that was known as "shoddy." The cloth was made into winter coats for soldiers and fell apart at the first sign or wear and moisture.] And a $50.00 kilt has to come perilously close to being "shoddy."

    In answer to your rhetorical question, I suspect that many of the Scots who post here would much prefer to see fewer people in traditional 8 yard kilts than more people in some distorted version of a Traditional Kilt.

    For myself, I don't really care one way or the other. My personal feeling is that wearing a kilt is a "privilege," in a sense...even for those of us who claim some Scots heritage...and especially if we are not Scottish nationals. I know that's not a popular nor widely accepted position but it reflects my respect for my heritage and for the traditions and culture of the Scottish people. On the other hand, if buying a low priced kilt really and truly leads people into better and better quality and eventually to Traditional Quality, then more power to you and to those who make that agonizing journey. I, for one, would rather just skip over all the ultimately unsatisfactory substitutes.

    That said, if there were such a thing as a true 16 ounce, or better yet a true 18 ounce, PV, I would be tempted to at least look at a kilt made of it (if it were made with dedicated skill) simply for the convenience characteristics of PV. But I suspect that 16 ounce PV, if such a beast existed, would be as costly as 16 ounce wool.
    DWFII--Traditionalist and Auld Crabbit
    In the Highlands of Central Oregon

  4. #84
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    I've got a custom made, 8 yard, hand-sewn, knife pleated, Loch Carron strome made by a professional kilt maker from the Kieth school that I dealt with personally regarding my requirement.

    It's the finest article of clothing I've ever owned. It's also the most expensive (if you discount the mess kits I've had to buy). I marvel at the precision and skill involved in it's construction. I get more satisfaction from possessing it than from any 'nice suit' if ever owned. If my beautiful Kilt was destroyed in a tragic accident I'd still replace it in a heartbeat regardless of the cost, that's how much I love it and love wearing the Kilt.

    I've also got some PV kilts. They got me into kilting. They are not the same as my 'proper kilt' but I can wear them out and about without fear of breaking them and I do wear them still and my heart beats a little slower if someone is throwing Guiness about...

    I doubt I would have splashed out on my proper kilt were it not for experimental forays with these PV's. It took my trying out kilting in these to prompt me to buy a real one. I doubt I'd have splashed out otherwise and consequently felt vindicated and safe when deciding to buy as I knew in advance it was what I really wanted and my investment would not be wasted.

    I think all Kilt types are valid and I'd love to expound... but as we are continually reminded, this sub-forum is about tradtional kilts so in that respect I agree. There is absolutely nothing like them.

  5. #85
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    I know some were hoping against hope that I'd stick to my word about not responding to the thread, but I've been urged on by a couple of brothers to rejoin the battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Callahan
    you hope to control the content of replies on an Internet forum, you are usually going to be dissappointed.
    No, but I was thinking in my naiveté that people might respect the title of the sub-forum, otherwise, why have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky R
    However, a statement was made that I disagreed with and wanted to address in a civil and thoughtful manner.
    There are lots and lots of statements I disagree with in the Contemporary & Non-Traditional Kilts sub-forum, but I make no comment, as that is the place to talk about those topics. If I posted about every statement I disagreed with in that sub-forum, I do nothing but type messages there all day long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Crocker
    No, I think the box pleated kilts are traditional.
    I purposely didn't mention them for two reasons. First, four yards is not as expensive as eight yards of wool. Secondly, I almost see them as a "traditional revival kilt," rather than from the traditional continuity of the eight yard, knife pleated kilt. The knife pleated kilt has been the most popular and most worn of kilts for a long, long time. The box pleated kilts are more of an historical revival of a traditional kilt. This was the only reason I didn't mention them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveB
    The opening post may have used the wrong garment for the cheaper image
    I think some were just looking for something to argue about.
    Last edited by Scotus; 15th March 09 at 04:06 AM. Reason: correct a spelling error

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotus View Post
    No, but I was thinking in my naiveté that people might respect the title of the sub-forum, otherwise, why have it.
    Hear hear! I think the thread veered away from "traditional kilts" right about here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Scotus View Post
    Think about how much you're spending on those Utilikilks and how much you could save by not buying them, and instead save up for a traditional, 16 oz, eight yarder.
    Oh wait. This is a bit awkward...

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by robthehiker View Post
    Hear hear! I think the thread veered away from "traditional kilts" right about here:

    Oh wait. This is a bit awkward...
    Not really.

    When I was a young boy and I would ask a question, nine times out of ten my old dad would say "compared to what?"

    "Compared to what?"...I think the very question underscores the need for a Traditional Kilt sub-forum and people to respect it...if only as a refuge from the notion that all kilts and all kilt wearers can, or more commonly, should be taken to the lowest common denominator, dumbed down, and lumped together.

    As if Scottish history, Scottish culture, and the sensibilities of the Scottish people didn't matter to those of us who say we "honour...."
    DWFII--Traditionalist and Auld Crabbit
    In the Highlands of Central Oregon

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by robthehiker View Post
    Oh wait. This is a bit awkward...
    Uh... no it's not.

    I made it clear, if not in my original post, then in subsequent posts, that I was speaking only of those who bought Utilikilts only because they're less expensive, not those who buy them because that's what they prefer to wear.
    Last edited by Scotus; 15th March 09 at 10:36 AM. Reason: spelling

  9. #89
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    Fair enough, and thank you for clarifying your take on the box pleat topic, Scotus. The box pleated kilt, as well as, double box, are a topic with threads in the Traditional kilt sub-forum, so I feel no guilt in bringing them up here.
    I tried to ask my inner curmudgeon before posting, but he sprayed me with the garden hose…
    Yes, I have squirrels in my brain…

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotus View Post
    I
    There are lots and lots of statements I disagree with in the Contemporary & Non-Traditional Kilts sub-forum, but I make no comment, as that is the place to talk about those topics. If I posted about every statement I disagreed with in that sub-forum, I do nothing but type messages there all day long.
    The 'sticky part' of this is that the original post was (at least the way I read it) directed at 'lower priced kilt wearers' who didn't / couldn't / wouldn't save up for an 8 yard kilt. I disagreed with comments having to do with the 'traditional kilts' and the comments you brought up about the low priced kilts being a 'gateway' to higher priced kilts. There is no 'agenda' behind my discussing this... just an open and honest discussion / disagreement.

    I didn't think I was overstepping boudaries and still think I did not. If you believe I did, then I apologize. I didn't post to 'pick an argument', just that I saw things from a different angle and in a different light.
    Last edited by RockyR; 15th March 09 at 10:17 AM.

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