How Long to Make a Tradition

[Bugbear]

I think a lot of people are confusing "tradition" with fashion or fad or just conventions (or any ol' thing) that has been around longer than they have.

You going to name names?

I will agree, in a way, that the term "traditional" has been very much abused by those who use it as a buz word either for or against.

I'm sticking by my statement that a tradition is made stronger if it's reasons or perpose for being are explained as the tradition is passed on. In other words, telling someone they should do something because it is "traditional," and not being able to explain why it is traditional, the history behind the tradition, or even the myths that lead to the tradition, weakens the tradition and leads to "Buz-Word-ism."

[Abax]

I can say "tradition," knowing exactly what I mean, and you can think you understand. I think this word has a meaning that is unique to the group that employs it, and it's probably even further unique to the situations they describe.

I wear traditional business casual clothes to work. My wife and I have a traditional Christmas dinner. We have a tradition at work where employees who have finished their training buy everybody pizza. Lots of meanings there, all unique to the groups and situations.

If language was more precise than it actually is, we'd probably all be pretty upset with each other.

Abax

[Twa_Corbies]

I can say "tradition," knowing exactly what I mean, and you can think you understand. I think this word has a meaning that is unique to the group that employs it, and it's probably even further unique to the situations they describe.

I wear traditional business casual clothes to work. My wife and I have a traditional Christmas dinner. We have a tradition at work where employees who have finished their training buy everybody pizza. Lots of meanings there, all unique to the groups and situations.

If language was more precise than it actually is, we'd probably all be pretty upset with each other.

Abax

Good point. You know in Chicago, deep-dish pizza is a tradition, but that particular tradition only goes back 50 years or so. In the late 1700's a fellow in Wales named Edward Williams (Iolo Morganwyg) started a tradition called the Gorsedd of the Bards at the Welsh National Eisteddfod, complete with Druids in white robes; until then, that had never been a part of the Eisteddfod, but it has become a tradition ever since. The Pledge of Allegiance recited to the American flag by school children all across the United States started off as a patriotic aphorism first conceived back in 1894, but it became instantly popular and has been a tradition ever since.

I don't think any particular length of time is necessary for a fad to become a tradition, what is required perhaps more than anything is a general acceptance of it in order to perpetuate it. And just because something is a tradition doesn't mean that it won't die off or fall from public approval. Every Southern state in the U.S. that was once a part of the Confederacy used to fly the Confederate battle flag along with the state and national flag at state capital buildings and courthouses, but the flying of the Confederate flag at civic institutons is a tradition that has fallen from favor over the past 25 years and is seen no more.

[Abax]

If language was more precise than it actually is, we'd probably all be pretty upset with each other.

No disrespect meant, but if words are about communication then the more precise they are the better we understand each other. If they are only about display...of cunning or fierceness or whatever...then a grunt and a slap of the ground will do.

So let me try to be more precise.

Some things require precision. For instance, directions on how to administer a medication ought to be so clear that we would all carry out the same actions. The definition of a centimeter ought to be precise. But when we talk about kilts, we're really talking about an emotional experience. Once clothes keep you from freezing in the snow or burning in the sun, they provide a way to express yourself to the world:

"I belong to this group."
"Among this group's members, I am remarkable."
"I am unique unto myself."
"I reject the norm in the most extreme manner I can conceive."

In talking about kilts, I believe we are telling each other about *our* emotional experiences, hoping the listener can relate our story to some experience they have had. For both the story teller and the listener, their emotional experiences are unique and can only be truly known to themselves.

The original post in this thread asked for a definition of when something becomes a valid tradition. I believe tradition is an emotional experience that does not lend itself to a precision of creation or expression. I can tell you how I engage in tradition, but my description of those emotions are just approximations. In communicating about emotions, we end up knowing not so much about the other person, but more about how our experiences are more or less like theirs. Even if I could communicate my definition of tradition and when it becomes that, exactly, I doubt most other people would find it exactly satisfying. Their experience and their emotions are different, and that realization calls for a bit of tolerance. Insisting that we all share the same definition of an emotional experience like tradition is probably a good way for people to get upset with each other.


The imprecision of describing tradition doesn't mean we should stop talking about it. Sometimes, a vague, imprecise reference can be quite powerful. Look at "Where Men and Dogs Seem Small" by Fred Machetanz:



I have a full-sized print of this painting. Notice that the colors are all wrong. Snow isn't purple or pink. McKinley rarely looks yellow. The sky isn't that funny mix of colors. But this painting by Machetanz captures the feeling I've had in the middle of nowhere *perfectly*. Laying in a snow bank at three in the afternoon watching the sun set, listening to the sound of perfect silence interrupted only by my own breathing. No one around for miles and miles. And then one thing passes by. May be a rabbit, or a bird, or a musher. They don't know I'm there, as they too enjoy the absolute desolate beauty of the cold winter day. The painting reminds me of these feelings, and I like remembering those rare moments.

I'm not lobbying for some watered-down definition of tradition that seeks to please everyone and offend no one. But I do think that some concepts are *personal*, and to try turn tradition into a public fixture does it an injustice. Historical recountings of past tradition can be as precise as our records. But the essence of a tradition - especially those yet to come - should be left to our own imaginations and experiences. Sharing our traditions should be a gift, not an imposition of will.

Abax

[DWFII]

So let me try to be more precise....
[snip]
I'm not lobbying for some watered-down definition of tradition that seeks to please everyone and offend no one. But I do think that some concepts are *personal*, and to try turn tradition into a public fixture does it an injustice. Historical recountings of past tradition can be as precise as our records. But the essence of a tradition - especially those yet to come - should be left to our own imaginations and experiences. Sharing our traditions should be a gift, not an imposition of will.

Sure and I don't disagree with most of what you say.

I agree that "some concepts" are '*personal*." What a person wears, how they wear it and what they think they are conveying to the rest of society are all probably personal (I have some reservations about the last bit).

But I don't think traditions fall into that category. Now that might be just me, but I think if you look closely at practices that are genuine traditions...being passed down from generation to generation...and not just long-standing personal habits or foibles; and if you consider the meaning of the word especially as it is understood by the majority of society--and as a vehicle for communicating or conveying a concept-- it quickly becomes apparent that while traditions themselves may vary from culture to culture the concept of a "tradition" does have a fairly precise meaning.

In the context of kilts and this forum, I am going to go out on a limb...because as much as I enjoy the mental exercise, I think the real issue is being avoided...

I only speak definitively for myself. But I sense from others who share my views that they basically agree that no one has the right to tell another person what to wear or how to wear it.

This is a discussion forum...about kilts and kilt wearing and various aspects thereof...and no one is in danger of being taken to court or made to stand in a corner if they choose to disagree or just to go their own way, iconoclastic as that may be. For that very reason, I am sometimes made uneasy by what I perceive to be a level of defensiveness that is all out of proportion to the comments being made.

At the same time, I believe...and I know for a fact, that I am not alone in believing this...that Traditional Highland Dress is a fairly specific thing. A melange of historical and cultural conventions, preferences and styles, that has been passed down from generation to generation and which has cultural and social significance to no few individuals.

To point this out...when appropriate...does not make me nor anyone of my colleagues "kilt police" nor does it suggest the level of censoriousness that is sometimes attributed to folks whose sensibilities and natural predilections are more conservative/traditional than the prevailing consensus.

[Abax]

the concept of a "tradition" does have a fairly precise meaning.

. . . Traditional Highland Dress is a fairly specific thing. A melange of historical and cultural conventions, preferences and styles, that has been passed down from generation to generation and which has cultural and social significance to no few individuals.

. . .

To point this out...when appropriate...does not make me nor anyone of my colleagues "kilt police" nor does it suggest the level of censoriousness that is sometimes attributed to folks whose sensibilities and natural predilections are more conservative/traditional than the prevailing consensus.

"No few individuals" sounds like you're characterizing traditionalists with majority status, then you characterize your own traditionalism as outside the prevailing consensus. If you resist the prevailing consensus, I think that would make you an anachronism. Those who follow the prevailing consensus would be the keepers of tradition in its most current form.

Some people who use the word "tradition" mean "the old way that has wrongly fallen out of use." The impression I get from these traditionalists is that they lament change and believe if they don't champion ways which have been superseded, their minority will become even smaller. You don't have to be a martyr to like traditional things - live as you will and don't worry if you're not in the majority.

Apart from obtaining accurate records, historical tradition ought to be very easy to define. A group of people in a place and time did "X"." So if you want to seize on a time and say "this was tradition," I have no problem with that. But that's not what the original poster nor I have suggested. I believe that magic time period of how long it takes something recent to become a *new* tradition is elusive and subjective. You think it must follow the formula of being "passed down from generation to generation," so you think it's entirely objective. I believe . . . and I know for a fact, that I am not alone in believing this . . . that it's more subjective than that. So now we've both posited arguments who's sole weight is that we're not alone in believing something. That's not really helpful to the question, is it?

As far as I can tell, the question of how long it takes something to become a tradition remains unanswered. I'm suggesting that the answer lies in respecting subjective viewpoints and tolerance. I want to hear about people's traditions and their perceptions of them. Maybe they'll cause me to reflect on my life or my traditions. Censorius kilt police? It's not so much what you say that matters, but how you say it and your corresponding tolerance for differing viewpoints. Intolerance is an act of desperation.

Abax

[davedove]

I'm sticking by my statement that a tradition is made stronger if it's reasons or perpose for being are explained as the tradition is passed on. In other words, telling someone they should do something because it is "traditional," and not being able to explain why it is traditional, the history behind the tradition, or even the myths that lead to the tradition, weakens the tradition and leads to "Buz-Word-ism."

I agree that traditions should be examined and understood. Sometimes "the way it's always been done" is no longer necessary or even sensible.

A story to illustrate:
A young girl was learning to cook from her mother.
"Mom, why do always cut the tip off of the roast before you cook it."
"That's the way I learned to do it from your Grandmother."

"Grandma, why do always cut the tip off of the roast before you cook it."
"I learned to do it that way from my mother."

"Great-Grandma, why do always cut the tip off of the roast before you cook it."
"Well, the pan I had wasn't big enough for the whole roast, so I had to cut off a bit to make it fit."