How Long to Make a Tradition

[Jock Scot]

Just like a journey starts with the first step,traditions start with the first idea that "something" is worth preserving.

When does a tradition die? I suppose, when the last person that thinks that the "something" is worth preserving dies,or,ceases to matter to anyone ,any more.

[Pleater]

Something which traditions do is alter - earlier in this thread it was stated that mother's day in Britain was a recent thing - but 'Mothering Sunday' goes back some time further, and was the Sunday when indentured servants had time off to return home to attend a service at their mother church.

Naturally they would, if possible take a gift, and maybe gather some Spring flowers along the way to give to their mother, but it was not 'mother's day' in the same way as now.

I am involved in English folk dance, and I sing a bit too, and it does seem to be that once there is an attempt to keep something exactly the same year on year, that is when it begins to die and people don't bother to turn up - maybe because they know exactly what is going to happen so why bother?

There are 'traditions' such as the Punch and Judy show, where the script and characters could be varied to reflect both national and local goings on, sometimes most cruelly, sometimes playing on the patriotic, other times railing against some unpopular law or politician - or even someone royal!!

It is as though there is the safe part - Punch always has a squeeky voice and is unruley, the policemen always is foiled - and then there are the surprises, just to keep it interesting.

Anne the Pleater

[morrison]

Tradition, it seems to me, is started where it's beneficial to people. The carrying on of the benefit sometimes is long lived and sadly sometimes short lived. woof

[Bugbear]

I have shiney black shoes, and shiney brown shoes. I try not to wear them both at the same time.

I am not sure that the smaller subcultures outside or on the edge of the main stream do not or can not have traditions, as MacMillan of Rathdown seems to suggest. I could be misunderstanding what is being said, but I can think of a few small groups that have very strong traditions who are also not exactly accepted into the main stream of society. In fact, not being accepted into the main stream of society can lead to traditions being formed among these small fringe groups.

It's a way to protect the culture. I am thinking about the traditions of some of the American SouthWest tribes, as well as, a few other somewhat small and out of the main stream cultures. Sometimes there are traditions that one does not let outsiders know the culture's traditions and even to mislead outsiders.

I don't think I can agree with the notion that fringe and non-main stream folks on the edge are without or incapable of forming tradition.

Ehh, what do I know.

[DWFII]

I think a lot of people are confusing "tradition" with fashion or fad or just conventions (or any ol' thing) that has been around longer than they have.

[Bugbear]

I think a lot of people are confusing "tradition" with fashion or fad or just conventions (or any ol' thing) that has been around longer than they have.

You going to name names?

I will agree, in a way, that the term "traditional" has been very much abused by those who use it as a buz word either for or against.

I'm sticking by my statement that a tradition is made stronger if it's reasons or perpose for being are explained as the tradition is passed on. In other words, telling someone they should do something because it is "traditional," and not being able to explain why it is traditional, the history behind the tradition, or even the myths that lead to the tradition, weakens the tradition and leads to "Buz-Word-ism."

[Abax]

I can say "tradition," knowing exactly what I mean, and you can think you understand. I think this word has a meaning that is unique to the group that employs it, and it's probably even further unique to the situations they describe.

I wear traditional business casual clothes to work. My wife and I have a traditional Christmas dinner. We have a tradition at work where employees who have finished their training buy everybody pizza. Lots of meanings there, all unique to the groups and situations.

If language was more precise than it actually is, we'd probably all be pretty upset with each other.

Abax

[Twa_Corbies]

I can say "tradition," knowing exactly what I mean, and you can think you understand. I think this word has a meaning that is unique to the group that employs it, and it's probably even further unique to the situations they describe.

I wear traditional business casual clothes to work. My wife and I have a traditional Christmas dinner. We have a tradition at work where employees who have finished their training buy everybody pizza. Lots of meanings there, all unique to the groups and situations.

If language was more precise than it actually is, we'd probably all be pretty upset with each other.

Abax

Good point. You know in Chicago, deep-dish pizza is a tradition, but that particular tradition only goes back 50 years or so. In the late 1700's a fellow in Wales named Edward Williams (Iolo Morganwyg) started a tradition called the Gorsedd of the Bards at the Welsh National Eisteddfod, complete with Druids in white robes; until then, that had never been a part of the Eisteddfod, but it has become a tradition ever since. The Pledge of Allegiance recited to the American flag by school children all across the United States started off as a patriotic aphorism first conceived back in 1894, but it became instantly popular and has been a tradition ever since.

I don't think any particular length of time is necessary for a fad to become a tradition, what is required perhaps more than anything is a general acceptance of it in order to perpetuate it. And just because something is a tradition doesn't mean that it won't die off or fall from public approval. Every Southern state in the U.S. that was once a part of the Confederacy used to fly the Confederate battle flag along with the state and national flag at state capital buildings and courthouses, but the flying of the Confederate flag at civic institutons is a tradition that has fallen from favor over the past 25 years and is seen no more.

[DWFII]

No disrespect meant, but if words are about communication then the more precise they are the better we understand each other. If they are only about display...of cunning or fierceness or whatever...then a grunt and a slap of the ground will do.

I don't think that traditions can be legislated away nor do I think that they spontaneously "die." sometimes a culture turns away from a tradition and no longer practices it, but once it is established in a population it doesn't really die until those who grew up with it die and it is no longer, can no longer be, passed down to the next generation.

Even if a tradition is no longer actively observed, it will still be held in some respect by those for whom it may have once been an integral part of their lives..

[davedove]

I'm sticking by my statement that a tradition is made stronger if it's reasons or perpose for being are explained as the tradition is passed on. In other words, telling someone they should do something because it is "traditional," and not being able to explain why it is traditional, the history behind the tradition, or even the myths that lead to the tradition, weakens the tradition and leads to "Buz-Word-ism."

I agree that traditions should be examined and understood. Sometimes "the way it's always been done" is no longer necessary or even sensible.

A story to illustrate:
A young girl was learning to cook from her mother.
"Mom, why do always cut the tip off of the roast before you cook it."
"That's the way I learned to do it from your Grandmother."

"Grandma, why do always cut the tip off of the roast before you cook it."
"I learned to do it that way from my mother."

"Great-Grandma, why do always cut the tip off of the roast before you cook it."
"Well, the pan I had wasn't big enough for the whole roast, so I had to cut off a bit to make it fit."