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  1. #1
    Join Date
    24th March 08
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abax View Post
    So let me try to be more precise....
    [snip]
    I'm not lobbying for some watered-down definition of tradition that seeks to please everyone and offend no one. But I do think that some concepts are *personal*, and to try turn tradition into a public fixture does it an injustice. Historical recountings of past tradition can be as precise as our records. But the essence of a tradition - especially those yet to come - should be left to our own imaginations and experiences. Sharing our traditions should be a gift, not an imposition of will.
    Sure and I don't disagree with most of what you say.

    I agree that "some concepts" are '*personal*." What a person wears, how they wear it and what they think they are conveying to the rest of society are all probably personal (I have some reservations about the last bit).

    But I don't think traditions fall into that category. Now that might be just me, but I think if you look closely at practices that are genuine traditions...being passed down from generation to generation...and not just long-standing personal habits or foibles; and if you consider the meaning of the word especially as it is understood by the majority of society--and as a vehicle for communicating or conveying a concept-- it quickly becomes apparent that while traditions themselves may vary from culture to culture the concept of a "tradition" does have a fairly precise meaning.

    In the context of kilts and this forum, I am going to go out on a limb...because as much as I enjoy the mental exercise, I think the real issue is being avoided...

    I only speak definitively for myself. But I sense from others who share my views that they basically agree that no one has the right to tell another person what to wear or how to wear it.

    This is a discussion forum...about kilts and kilt wearing and various aspects thereof...and no one is in danger of being taken to court or made to stand in a corner if they choose to disagree or just to go their own way, iconoclastic as that may be. For that very reason, I am sometimes made uneasy by what I perceive to be a level of defensiveness that is all out of proportion to the comments being made.

    At the same time, I believe...and I know for a fact, that I am not alone in believing this...that Traditional Highland Dress is a fairly specific thing. A melange of historical and cultural conventions, preferences and styles, that has been passed down from generation to generation and which has cultural and social significance to no few individuals.

    To point this out...when appropriate...does not make me nor anyone of my colleagues "kilt police" nor does it suggest the level of censoriousness that is sometimes attributed to folks whose sensibilities and natural predilections are more conservative/traditional than the prevailing consensus.
    DWFII--Traditionalist and Auld Crabbit
    In the Highlands of Central Oregon

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
    the concept of a "tradition" does have a fairly precise meaning.

    . . . Traditional Highland Dress is a fairly specific thing. A melange of historical and cultural conventions, preferences and styles, that has been passed down from generation to generation and which has cultural and social significance to no few individuals.

    . . .

    To point this out...when appropriate...does not make me nor anyone of my colleagues "kilt police" nor does it suggest the level of censoriousness that is sometimes attributed to folks whose sensibilities and natural predilections are more conservative/traditional than the prevailing consensus.
    "No few individuals" sounds like you're characterizing traditionalists with majority status, then you characterize your own traditionalism as outside the prevailing consensus. If you resist the prevailing consensus, I think that would make you an anachronism. Those who follow the prevailing consensus would be the keepers of tradition in its most current form.

    Some people who use the word "tradition" mean "the old way that has wrongly fallen out of use." The impression I get from these traditionalists is that they lament change and believe if they don't champion ways which have been superseded, their minority will become even smaller. You don't have to be a martyr to like traditional things - live as you will and don't worry if you're not in the majority.

    Apart from obtaining accurate records, historical tradition ought to be very easy to define. A group of people in a place and time did "X"." So if you want to seize on a time and say "this was tradition," I have no problem with that. But that's not what the original poster nor I have suggested. I believe that magic time period of how long it takes something recent to become a *new* tradition is elusive and subjective. You think it must follow the formula of being "passed down from generation to generation," so you think it's entirely objective. I believe . . . and I know for a fact, that I am not alone in believing this . . . that it's more subjective than that. So now we've both posited arguments who's sole weight is that we're not alone in believing something. That's not really helpful to the question, is it?

    As far as I can tell, the question of how long it takes something to become a tradition remains unanswered. I'm suggesting that the answer lies in respecting subjective viewpoints and tolerance. I want to hear about people's traditions and their perceptions of them. Maybe they'll cause me to reflect on my life or my traditions. Censorius kilt police? It's not so much what you say that matters, but how you say it and your corresponding tolerance for differing viewpoints. Intolerance is an act of desperation.

    Abax

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