The one most important factor, IMHO ....

[Alan H]

Alan H.,

One last question. I have looked at those kilts at Burnett's and Struth. They look real nice, although it might be hard to find a tartan that would work. What would you say is the biggest difference I would see between a 5 yard and an 8 yard kilt? (lets assume they are both machine sewn.) Would someone, at a formal function, look at me and say "Oh no, you have a 5yard kilt!" or something like that? Is it noticable?

Again, I appreciate all your help.

Brice

Yes, it's noticeable, but only from the back. obviously since the yardage difference is essentially all in the pleats.

OK, here goes...given two kilts made for the same sized guy, with the exact same sett, OK? One is a "5 yard" or thereabouts...the other is an "eight yard" or thereabouts.

Same guy...same sett.

The over-apron, first pleat, under-apron, kick pleat, buckles and quality of finish will be identical.

The 5 yard kilt will have fewer pleats, and they will have larger pleat reveals and not be as deep.

HOW MUCH larger...HOW MANY fewer etc. etc. Impossible to say without knowing the size of the guy and the size of the sett. I am currently making a six yard kilt for myself which has a 4.5-inch sett. It will have 29 pleats, which is plenty to look "traditional". However, because the sett is smaller, the pleats aren't as deep.

Which is more obvious..."fewer" pleats (and therefore a larger pleat reveal) or "less deep pleats"?

clear answer...."fewer" pleats is more obvious to the onlooker than "less deep pleats".

Of course there are people who will look askance at you at a formal function and roll their eyes at your lack of taste, respect, sophistication etc. etc. etc because you do not have on a kilt with 30+, tiny pleats, hand-sewn. There are even guys on this board who wouldn't SAY anything to you in a real-time situation, but will notice and be vaguely disgusted. The question is, are you going to let their ideas of what's right and proper and "done" prevent you from wearing the nicest kilt you can afford? It's totally your decision.

Honestly, the overwhelming majority of American and Canadians can't tell the difference between a five yard and an eight yard. It's just a KILT to them.

My personal feeling is that if you can only afford a 5-yard wool kilt, and you buy one and spend the not-insubstantial dollars required to purchase a nice pair of hose, a nice belt and a semi-dress sporran, then I'm going to treat you like a gentleman until proven otherwise. You wear the best you can.

And honestly, mate, just how often do you go to Black tie and White tie affairs at exclusively Scottish functions where you might, possibly, MAYBE encounter someone who would notice and care about your kilt? A nice wool 5-yard does just fine dressed up to waistcoat and tie level. You can't afford an Argyll jacket, so you won't be going out, wearing one. Honestly, how often do you dress up more than that?

[Leprechaun 91]

For that matter, I have stated this before. How is it that we are so caught up on what we (on this board) call "Traditional?" The kilt was worn by working-class Highlanders. It was the Carhardt work pant or Levis's jean of it's day. What we call "traditional" is a romanticized and refined ideal invented after proscription.

It would be the equivalent of saying that a man's suit is not proper if it is not in the Elizabethan or Edwardian styles because it is not "traditional."

At issue here is realy one of convention and taste. Better quality materials and workmanship translate into a better garment. Period. A well-made kilt made out of the best fabrics will certainly look, feel, and wear better. You can wear such a garment for decades and pass it down to your children.

What any man sees as, "traditional" is his own issue. Kilts were originally made from home-spun cloth. A big blanket that is belted on and pleated basically. Not entirely dissimilar to a toga. Each family had fabric of varied color, quality, and workmanship. This is the nature of the original garment. Why is it we insist that all Kilts must look alike. They certainly did not "traditionally." he tartan kilt as clan identification is realatively recent in the history of the kilt.

Be unique. Wear what you can afford AND what you LIKE. Never let another man's snobbery dictate your taste. Don't make bad financial decisions to accommodate another man's ideals. If he wants you to wear an 8 yard TANK in 16 oz hand-sewn home-spun wool, then HE can pay for it. If that is what you want, AND what you can afford, then by all means buy it.

I have my TANK. Ancient Campbell 16 oz Hand sewn. I paid $750.00 for it 20 years ago. I also have SWK, and I will be picking up my latest 16 oz Acrylic Black Watch pleated to stripe this after noon. (Pictures and review to come.) I like ALL of my kilts. I do inteed love my TANK. It is a thing of beauty and I wear it when I can. I will certainly not judge any man who takes the leap and gets kitted up within his means. It takes a man to wear a kilt. It takes a wise man to know what he can afford and act accordingly. It takes a braver man still to wear what he wants and can afford in a kilt.

I bit long-winded, but that is my $.02 US.

BTW. I love that we can have these discussions here. We all recognize that we are the minority in our own lives. We risk alienation within our own communities. Let us not alienate or discourage any of the rabble who have the courage to venture into our world. Let us not pass too critical a judgment on any man who steps out in his kilt.

SLAINTE!

[ForresterModern]

When asked if there is a noticeable difference between a standard traditional 8yd kilt in 13 or 16 oz tartan and a 5 yard casual in similar tartan I would have to say, yes definitely if you have any experience with kilts. If you have little or no experience with kilts, like most folks you would focus on the front of the kilt since that is the view most people are going to have of you, from the front. You would probably not notice the fewer number and shallower depth of the pleats in ther rear, and you probably would not notice that the amount of fabric included in the overlaps at the fringe ends of each apron is significantly less (4" triple overlaps on most of my "tanks" and about 1.5-2" single overlaps on my "6" yd B&S casual) which makes a difference in how well the aprons hang and stay closed as you walk or in a breeze. From the outside you would probably not notice that the lining is shorter and the body of the kilt itself less substantial feeling overall, but you might notice there is less lenght of sewn pleat in the fell from the outsied, if you look closely. The quality and weight of the buckles and straps may or may not be comparable. But most of all, the difference which seems to bother me the most, is that (as described in another thread of mine) the amount of fabric is indeed less, 5 or 6 yds nominally instead of 8 yds nominally in the traditional. But that nominal advertising description goes only part of the way to actually assessing how much less tartan fabric is really there. Most of my 8 yard kilts were indeed made with 7+ yards of fabric, which I think is reasonable considering you have things to match up like setts with the pleats, and some wastage in sewing a split 4yd double width piece of tartan into an 8-yd piece of single width (again having to match the tartan with some wastage). You have the same absolute amounts of wastage in a 5-6 yd kilt, but that constitutes a larger percentage of the overall amount of tartan you have avaialble, so the tendency is for a 5-6yd casual to actually have significantly less than the ascribed 5-6 yds. My B&S "6" yd casual actually had barely over 4 linear yards of material in it in the end, only about 55% of the amount present in my other 8yd tanks and a full 30% less than the advertised 6 yds. My 8 yd tanks had betwee 7.1 and 7.4 actual yards of fabric in them, a wastage loss of only 8-12% of the nominal 8 yards advertised. That much material difference does show if you know what you are looking at, and sometimes if you don't.

But 5-6yd casual kilts have a place in the world, like non-wool kilts, off the peg kilts, 4yd box pleat kilts, 8yd traditional machine or handsewn kilts. As long as you do your research and know what you are getting and why you chose that level/style of kilt, AND it suits your needs and desires in regards how YOU want to look, in my opinion almost any kilt is better than none at all. Even a budget kilt can be a way to start into kilting, and some/many may never decide to go any further than that, as it meets their needs. Others may desire to move on to more traditional, more extravagant, and obviously more expensive kilts and either stop somewhere along that trail or continue for the rest of their life seeking kilt heaven (look at Hamish with I believe now more than 100 kilts in his collection), that perfect high quality tartan in the perfect hues and weight, hand made into a work of art that rests effortlessly on one's hips and waist as if you had grown to fit it rather than had it built to fit you.

To each his own. Kilt on. I will now step down from the soapbox to leave time fo someone else to comment.

[Alan H]

Just a comment about Forester Moderns post above:

the odds that an "eight yard kilt" will have exactly eight yards of fabric in it are small. I've made six "eight yard kilts"....meaning full aprons, 4-inch foldbacks for the over-apron fringe, deep kick pleats, 27 - 33 pleats in the back etc. etc and not one of them has had eight yards of material in it. Most had 7 yards and a foot or so.

The terms "eight yard kilt" and "five yard kilt" are in my humble opinion, incredibly misleading since they have almost NO relationship to the amount of cloth actually used in the kilt. All they do is indicate kilts "made with some more cloth" versus kilts "mad with some less cloth".

As I've written many times on this board, and in fact there's a post all about it, right now down in the kiltmakers subforum, the number of pleats, depth of pleats etc. etc depends on three things.

size of the guy wearing the kilt

size of the sett

amount of tartan used

If you try to make a kilt with eight yards of material in it to go around someone with a 32 inch waist and 36 inch hips, you're going to waste masses of material, or you're going to make tiny, tiny pleat reveals and the truth is that a pleat reveal less than 1/2 an inch just simply doesn't look that great. Besides, you're throwing away money in labor and fabric.

About Leprechaun-91's assertion that the kilt is the equivalent of blue jeans....well, he has a point, doesn't he? There are also people on this board who will violently disagree with his outlook. The upshot, pricekolob, is that you have to decide for yourself.

PERSONALLY......and this is just me, I would say to save your pennies and buy a nice "5-yard" *gag* machine-sewn kilt made out of nice wool tartan when you can. Wear it with pride and confidence, and quit worrying about what other people think about your choice of kilts.

Now, you've gathered data and had fifteen guys tell you what to do and where to buy etc. etc. The time is coming when you should stop asking....and start DOING, when you have the $$ resources.

[Alan H]

Also, now that Stillwater kilts has added a second tartan to their heavyweight wool line, you might check them out, understanding that in terms of construction, they are not a "traditional" kilt, but they sure look darned good.

[bricelythgoe]

Now, you've gathered data and had fifteen guys tell you what to do and where to buy etc. etc. The time is coming when you should stop asking....and start DOING, when you have the $$ resources.

You had to say that didn't you? The problem that I have had is that in the past I have purchased to quickly and not done my research. I have had 3 kilts and only have one know. I found out after I bought the other two that they were not the quality I should have. It is really hard to do this over the internet.

I think the SWK might be out of the question for me. Every off the rack kilt (except USAK) I have purchased has the same problem. I get the first several pleats on the left side flipping on me. After looking at them, I am pretty sure it is because I don't have a standard hipsize (I think my but is too big). I just want to make sure I get the right size. I wish there was a video showing how to measure, rather than just pictures.

The bottom line is that this is the last kilt I buy for a while. I just want to make sure I get it right.

[Alan H]

You had to say that didn't you? The problem that I have had is that in the past I have purchased to quickly and not done my research. I have had 3 kilts and only have one know. I found out after I bought the other two that they were not the quality I should have. It is really hard to do this over the internet.

I think the SWK might be out of the question for me. Every off the rack kilt (except USAK) I have purchased has the same problem. I get the first several pleats on the left side flipping on me. After looking at them, I am pretty sure it is because I don't have a standard hipsize (I think my but is too big). I just want to make sure I get the right size. I wish there was a video showing how to measure, rather than just pictures.

The bottom line is that this is the last kilt I buy for a while. I just want to make sure I get it right.

You bought a USA Kilt, and it worked out well, right?

USA Kilts sells a semi-traditional for around $200 and change that will be made to YOUR meassurements. Yes, it's polyester-viscose, but it will look great.

Ummm...

[Bugbear]

That pleat flipping or kicking is probably caused by the pleats not being steeked along the inside of the pleats at the bottom of the fell. The Wizard of Bc explained it to me, and it seems to be a tipical shortcut in off the rack kilts.

[bricelythgoe]

You bought a USA Kilt, and it worked out well, right?

USA Kilts sells a semi-traditional for around $200 and change that will be made to YOUR meassurements. Yes, it's polyester-viscose, but it will look great.

Ummm...

It would actually be 240 for me. I do like my USA casual. I am getting more and more convinced about the USAK as we chat. I wish I had the 240 right now.

[Rob Wright]

I agree with the concept of the OP. You really can't dress up inferior fabric, but you can certainly take 5 yards (instead of 8) of nice fabric and make an excellent looking kilt. If you're on a budget crunch, maybe that's the way to go.

But, for my formal kilt, only one thing would do: family tartan, 16 oz, 8 yards, hand sewn. Period.

But, that's just me, I'm picky about certain things.

It is most definitely worth it, I have four of the Douglas tartans, 9 yd 16 oz hand sewn kilts. Love em!

Rob