Ancient Order of Hibernians

[beloitpiper]

There are plenty of non-religious Irish organizations to join. My own family came to Ireland (Co. Cork) from Aberdeenshire during the Clearances. My family is Presbyterian, but we're also non-Plantation Irish. I'm friends with a lot of the guys in AOH, but I'm not religious myself so I stick with the Shamrock Club and my pipe band.

[GlassMan]

Considering the trouble I've been having waking up on time lately, maybe I should create a new group open to everyone who also has difficulty getting out of bed - The Ancient Order of Hibernators, open to humans, bears and other hibernating mammals.

[Colonel MacNeal]

I'm just curious, my understanding from the Irish with whom I grew up is that Protestant Irish are descendents of Scots who migrated/were forced to Ireland. Does this jibe with your own family history?

Indeed, but there were also Protestants who were descended from Anglo-Saxons immigrants in Ireland, as well as those descended from the Anglo-Norman ruling class.

[Woodsheal]

What's interesting to me - getting away from the religious/political aspect of things! - is that here in my area the Hibernians are a dynamic, thriving, active, growing organization, as opposed to our local Scottish Society, which is a declining (dying, actually!), moribund group composed of elderly folks with little or no interest in activities which could actually promote recognition of Scottish culture, contributions, etc.

For example, our monthly kilt night, which I've tried to promote to the Scottish Society as a perfect opportunity to gain visibility - and perhaps recruit younger members - is largely ignored by the fuddy-duddy membership who apparently prefer to let their kilts gather dust in the closet.

Why is the Irish-American community so much MORE dynamic than the Scottish-American...?

[Colonel MacNeal]

What's interesting to me - getting away from the religious/political aspect of things! - is that here in my area the Hibernians are a dynamic, thriving, active, growing organization, as opposed to our local Scottish Society, which is a declining (dying, actually!), moribund group composed of elderly folks with little or no interest in activities which could actually promote recognition of Scottish culture, contributions, etc.

For example, our monthly kilt night, which I've tried to promote to the Scottish Society as a perfect opportunity to gain visibility - and perhaps recruit younger members - is largely ignored by the fuddy-duddy membership who apparently prefer to let their kilts gather dust in the closet.

Why is the Irish-American community so much MORE dynamic than the Scottish-American...?

Without indulging in broad stereotypes, let's just say the the Irish tend to be more extroverted, and Scots in general tend to be more introverted. The Irish also have a stronger sense of cultural identity because of religion, famine, and a history of suffering from oppression. Certainly, the Scots have suffered from oppression as well, but not to the same extent as the Irish.

I better stop now.

[beloitpiper]

Also, sheer numbers. A total of 36,495,800 Americans (more than 12% of total population) self-reported Irish ancestry in the 2006 American Community Survey, and another 5 million self-reported Scots-Irish, who also participate in Irish events/organizations. Now, in the 2000 Census, 4.8 million Americans self-reported Scottish ancestry, which is only 1.7% of the total US population.

I'm sure there's WAY more people than that that actually have Scottish or Irish blood, but these numbers are only for people who are aware of their heritage.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Also, Woodsheal, you are up in the Northeast where there is a much higher concentration of people of Irish descent. Here in the southeast you have different dynamics. There is a much higher proportion of people of Scottish descent and so there are more Scottish societies than Irish (though the AOH in Charlotte is growing). Many of the "Irish" in this area, in fact are Scots-Irish (Ulster Scots).

[Woodsheal]

Also, Woodsheal, you are up in the Northeast where there is a much higher concentration of people of Irish descent. Here in the southeast you have different dynamics. There is a much higher proportion of people of Scottish descent and so there are more Scottish societies than Irish (though the AOH in Charlotte is growing). Many of the "Irish" in this area, in fact are Scots-Irish (Ulster Scots).

Truly! All cities in this region feature traditionally Irish neighborhoods, Irish-dominated professions (firefighters, policemen), etc. And yet, a glance at the phone book reveals nearly as many Scots surnames as Irish (many of whom probably think they're "Irish"!). Scottish emigration to America took place quite a bit earlier that the later waves of Irish, so the Scots here are more "americanized", and without those distinctive neighborhoods and other distinguishing aspects.
It's sad, though. In ten year's time, our local Scottish Society will be dead and gone....

[macwilkin]

Also, Woodsheal, you are up in the Northeast where there is a much higher concentration of people of Irish descent. Here in the southeast you have different dynamics. There is a much higher proportion of people of Scottish descent and so there are more Scottish societies than Irish (though the AOH in Charlotte is growing). Many of the "Irish" in this area, in fact are Scots-Irish (Ulster Scots).

Exactly, Matt. Many Americans with Scots-Irish heritage have no concept of what the term actually means in regards to ethnicity and religion. The Scots-Irish quickly assimilated into an "American" culture due to their experiences on the frontier (thank you, Frederick Jackson Turner) and transformed their Ulster identity into an American one.

It's amazing how many people here in the Ozarks believe that their Baptist/Presbyterian/Methodist/Campbellite ancestors who came to America in the 1700s are of the same vein as Irish Catholic immigrants in the 1840s.

T.

[macwilkin]

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