When will Kilts sell for the cost of Jeans?

[Geoff Withnell]

Why does it have to be either/or? Given sufficient demand, both production models can exist. Even in my giant economy size, I can buy an inexpensive, poly/wool suit for less than $100. Or (if I have the cash) I can drive to the upscale mall, go the the tailor, pick out a fine wool fabric, and have a nice 3 piece hand-fitted suit for about $600. As several posters have noted, contemporary kilt prices are not significantly different than designer jeans prices. Just less of the price is mark-up due to lower demand. I personally think it would be great if say 50 million American men had a Stillwater economy kilt (or the equivalent) or two in their closet. I have several kilts at that level myself. However, I would still be looking forward to my Leatherneck boxpleat from Barb T.

Geoff Withnell

[DWFII]

Steve,

Interesting essay. The very same thing could be said about shoes--off-the-shelf shoes versus bespoke.

But I have a question for you that puzzles and confuses me.... you say Barb sews at 30-40 stitches per minute. I'm wondering if that is a typo. If she is stitching at 10 stitches per inch (spi)...which I think would be a pretty long stitch for the work she is doing (a bit shorter than one eighth of an inch in length)...then in one minute she stitches four inches. One minute to go four inches?!! And if the stitch length is more like 16 or 18 spi, then the results are even worse--only two inches of seam in one minute.

I don't know what to make of this, I am not challenging you but it just doesn't make sense to me. I am slow as molasses in winter and I can sew a straight seam of ten or more inches at 16-18 spi in a minute and a complex curved seam of at least 6 or 8 inches in a minute. So I'm wondering if you didn't mean that Barb could sew 300-400 stitches per minute.

Did I do the math wrong? Or what am I missing?

[Rex_Tremende]

Oops.

[Rex_Tremende]

So I'm wondering if you didn't mean that Barb could sew 300-400 stitches per minute.

That would be truly amazing.

I can sew about 6 spm, so I was impressed with 30 - about one stitch every two seconds, which sounds about right to me for expert hand-stitching.

Regards,
Rex.

[DWFII]

That would be truly amazing.

I can sew about 6 spm, so I was impressed with 30 - about one stitch every two seconds, which sounds about right to me for expert hand-stitching.

Regards,
Rex.

Rex,

Oh, I see...I probably mis-understood (it's only a little past 6 AM here and I had lots of fun last night).

When Steve was talking about the speed at which the workers in the jeans factory sewed and then the speed at which his machine could run, I assumed he was talking about machine stitching.

If it's hand-stitching, then 30-40 per minute is really impressive.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Depending on the application and the location, I can hand sew leather 10-20 inches per hour at 3spi.

[KFCarter]

Steve, this is definitely thought provoking. I'm not sure how the trade-offs play out. I think kilts are such a sound idea as garments that they could become a widely-adopted, mass produced form of clothing.

I think the large scale model could be viable as you described it, but I'm not sure that larger-scale with lower market cost per item is actually lower-cost in the long run.

I wonder if we wouldn't be better off with cars that cost far more per unit but lasted us a lifetime... would we actually spend less on our transportation that way?

Being someone who runs a historic building, I'm a big believer that my old pile of masonry is a lot more cost-effective than the "production built" multi-plexes common today. We'll be showing movies decades after those places have become parking lots.

I'm not just talking about the superior aesthetics of hand-made kilts, cars or theatres, but the fact that they may truly be a better financial investment for the consumer even though their initial prices is far higher. They may be a better investment of society, too. Lots and lots of smaller businesses serving "tailored" interests with high quality, long lasting products... not sure I'm right, but I do think it's worth considering.

[DWFII]

One of the aspects of all of this that has been an "issue" with me for as long as I can remember, is what I call the "factory mentality" that seems to pervade almost every aspect of modern life--from what we eat and how it is produced and delivered to us, to the entertainment choices that we typically make. And of course, that mentality not only affects kiltmaking...but, in my opinion, tends to undermine every aspect of what we consider "quality."

The over-arching reason for implementing every single process described in Steve's original thesis was to cut costs or replace time consuming and/or hard to master skills. In each case, implementing one led to implementing the next...and the next. And each of these techniques can be seen in...indeed they are almost the hallmark of...common, post WWII, mass-manufactured, commercial products...at almost any price point.

If we purchase products made in this way without any giving any thought to it; or, as kiltmakers (or shoemakers), if we adopt techniques and materials such as these, we, in effect, surrender to the "factory mentality"...because the only valid reasons to do so are the very same ones that motivated the factories themselves--the "bottom line." Time is money; skilled workers command higher wages...get rid of them; money, money, money.

But how can one love techniques or a process that has no history, that has no roots? The very origins of which are in a context (the factory) that demeans not only the final product but the skills and, more importantly, the individuals who are, or were, its heart and soul?

How can one love a process that has been made so mind-numbingly simplistic that, to a large extent, it can be entrusted in its entirety to dumb machines, with little or no human intervention? And when we borrow, or buy into, techniques that, having been adapted to machines (or to the factory context), are stripped of all complexity and all humanity, do we not take on some of the same stolid, immovable, passionless, character of the machine? How do we as individuals...confronting a product that is supposedly unique and individual...not blush with embarrassment when we allow ourselves and our culture to be so shamelessly debased?

So often we inherit our "ideals" from our parents and our peers (and, especially with regard to parents, that may very well be a good thing) but then we go through life without ever examining what lies underneath.

We all want "personal fulfillment," or so we say. But then we actively...and more importantly, unthinkingly...fall in with all the conventions and conveniences that serve to undermine any possibility of fulfillment.

In accepting the principle that 'cheaper is better' (or even 'good enough'); in relegating high quality--kilts, shoes, whatever--to the province of a very sneered upon 'elite', we participate in, and even defend, a system that devalues human worth to the level of the machine. Without recognizing it, we become less and less human and more and more divorced from the very things that connect us one to the other and enrich our lives.

And seen from a certain angle, most of the ills of modern society can be traced not only to this willing and perhaps even active acceptance of the lowest common denominator but to the ennui that inevitably accompanies it.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

One of the aspects of all of this that has been an "issue" with me for as long as I can remember, is what I call the "factory mentality" that seems to pervade almost every aspect of modern life--from what we eat and how it is produced and delivered to us, to the entertainment choices that we typically make. And of course, that mentality not only affects kiltmaking...but, in my opinion, tends to undermine every aspect of what we consider "quality."

The over-arching reason for implementing every single process described in Steve's original thesis was to cut costs or replace time consuming and/or hard to master skills. In each case, implementing one led to implementing the next...and the next. And each of these techniques can be seen in...indeed they are almost the hallmark of...common, post WWII, mass-manufactured, commercial products...at almost any price point.

If we purchase products made in this way without any giving any thought to it; or, as kiltmakers (or shoemakers), if we adopt techniques and materials such as these, we, in effect, surrender to the "factory mentality"...because the only valid reasons to do so are the very same ones that motivated the factories themselves--the "bottom line." Time is money; skilled workers command higher wages...get rid of them; money, money, money.

But how can one love techniques or a process that has no history, that has no roots? The very origins of which are in a context (the factory) that demeans not only the final product but the skills and, more importantly, the individuals who are, or were, its heart and soul?

How can one love a process that has been made so mind-numbingly simplistic that, to a large extent, it can be entrusted in its entirety to dumb machines, with little or no human intervention? And when we borrow, or buy into, techniques that, having been adapted to machines (or to the factory context), are stripped of all complexity and all humanity, do we not take on some of the same stolid, immovable, passionless, character of the machine? How do we as individuals...confronting a product that is supposedly unique and individual...not blush with embarrassment when we allow ourselves and our culture to be so shamelessly debased?

So often we inherit our "ideals" from our parents and our peers (and, especially with regard to parents, that may very well be a good thing) but then we go through life without ever examining what lies underneath.

We all want "personal fulfillment," or so we say. But then we actively...and more importantly, unthinkingly...fall in with all the conventions and conveniences that serve to undermine any possibility of fulfillment.

In accepting the principle that 'cheaper is better' (or even 'good enough'); in relegating high quality--kilts, shoes, whatever--to the province of a very sneered upon 'elite', we participate in, and even defend, a system that devalues human worth to the level of the machine. Without recognizing it, we become less and less human and more and more divorced from the very things that connect us one to the other and enrich our lives.

And seen from a certain angle, most of the ills of modern society can be traced not only to this willing and perhaps even active acceptance of the lowest common denominator but to the ennui that inevitably accompanies it.

I could not agree more-- what is chilling is to see this same mentality being applied to the governance of a nation, and to see its ready acceptance by the populace.

[Bugbear]

Steve,

Interesting essay. The very same thing could be said about shoes--off-the-shelf shoes versus bespoke.

But I have a question for you that puzzles and confuses me.... you say Barb sews at 30-40 stitches per minute. I'm wondering if that is a typo. If she is stitching at 10 stitches per inch (spi)...which I think would be a pretty long stitch for the work she is doing (a bit shorter than one eighth of an inch in length)...then in one minute she stitches four inches. One minute to go four inches?!! And if the stitch length is more like 16 or 18 spi, then the results are even worse--only two inches of seam in one minute.

I don't know what to make of this, I am not challenging you but it just doesn't make sense to me. I am slow as molasses in winter and I can sew a straight seam of ten or more inches at 16-18 spi in a minute and a complex curved seam of at least 6 or 8 inches in a minute. So I'm wondering if you didn't mean that Barb could sew 300-400 stitches per minute.

Did I do the math wrong? Or what am I missing?

DWFII, it takes me about thirty seconds to a minute to make a single stitch of the blind hem stiches that Barb makes, and they wouldn't be as close nor uniformly spaced as Barb's stitches. On top of that, I have no way of being sure that they are truly invisible stitches like Barb uses.

[The Wizard of BC]

Just to clear up one thing.

Barb does only hand stitching. Her stitches are completely invisible. You can even pull on the pleats, stretching as much as you like and you can't see even one stitch.

She stitches one stitch every yarn of the fabric. So on 16oz fabric that is a stitch length of about 1/32" and spaced 1/32" apart.

That equates to 1" per min.

Now I've spent some time around hand sewers and let me tell you the speed and accuracy that Barb maintains is blinding fast and superhuman accurate.

I've been blessed to be able to look closely at a lot of Kilts. Kilts from some of the most respected Kiltmakers in the world. No one, and I mean no one, comes close to the artistry of Barb. Elsie maybe but I've never seen one of her Kilts.

Just to make a comparison I have seen a lot of Military Kilts. The average stitch is two to three yarns long spaced 5 to 6 yarns apart. The stitches are visible as small divots along the edge of the pleats.



:ootd: