St George`s day

[English Bloke]

Are you saying he is actually Brian?

Brian? Do you think so? Crikey! I never thought of that...

And for those of you looking on in amazement and wondering why the threads regarding Saint Patrick's Day talked about green beer and funny hats and didn't raise similar heated debate, now you can get a feel for how despised the English are (not as individuals of course) and why we tend to play it quietly. Any display of English patriotism always (in my experience) stirs up this kind of boiling pot... I'd remind that the OP (who is a Scot by the way) mearly intended to wish the English a happy Saint George's Day, not to stoke the fires of civil war. Calm down chaps, it was all a long time ago.

I'm with Trefor. Many Welsh don't see the Union Flag as one flag representing all Britons, they see it as three flags that don't represent them at all... Although I love it, appreciate it's history and would hate to see it go; I think it's a slight on the MODERN Welsh to have no representation on the National Flag. Although it's important from a historical perspective that we know and understand what went on in centuries past, it's not really relevent to the Welsh people of today; the ones living NOW in Cardiff and Aberystwyth and Rhyl: I can fully appreciate why it is seen as insulting and patronising to be regarded as England's baby brother and not hold a national identity in one's own right... because you're only a Principality after all! Having discussed this at length with other Welshmen I fully comprehend the 'History be damned!' argument.

The move to federalism in Europe should, in time make all this irrelevant as there won't be a Union to worry about. Mind that said, it's arguable whether there is any Union left anymore (as this thread aptly demonstrates). I personally would welcome devolution for the ENGLISH now. Perhaps then it would finally put an end to this collective resentment that has existed between us since William the Bastard and we can all go forward and forge our own destinies...

And a happy retrospective Saint Goerge's Day.

[McClef]

This is getting really complicated to answer now!

. Well, this just isn't accurate, or true. It may be 19th century anti-British, pro-Irish inddependence propaganda, but it sure ain't the reality of history.

You have skipped over the problems that Elizabeth I had in maintaining her rule over Ireland with rebellions of Irish Lords such as the O'Neills and the Lack of success of her various Lord Lieutenants and Governors such as the Earl of Essex. English power and influence in reality was centred within the Pale of Dublin - hence the phrase "beyond the pale." Also the actions of figures such as Theobald Wolfe Tone in the 18th century deserve study.

The same is equally true of any British monarch with regard to Scotland; not since 1661 has the sovereign been crowned in Scotland, but that fact doesn't mean that ERII isn't the Queen North of the Tweed.

I think you are 10 years late here as the last coronation in Scotland was of Charles II at Scone in 1651 when Cromwell was in charge of England. That later Stewart monarchs did not have a separate coronation in Scotland is indeed true but technically they should have prior to the Act of Union, however the Honours of Scotland were present at sittings of the Scottish Parliament to depict the presence of the non-resident monarch.

Of course "ERII" is Queen of Scotland as she was crowned Queen of Great Britain and not merely of England though the is often mistakenly referred to as "The Queen of England."

She did, however create a problem that had not occurred since the Act of Union - that of regnal numbering. Scotland had never had a Queen Elizabeth I. To regularise the position it was decided that the highest regnal number from either England or Scotland would take precedence so, as has been pointed out, another James would be James VIII of the United Kingdom for example.

Wales is an appanage of the crown, rather like the Dukedom of Normandy, or the Channel Islands. It is, in effect, the personal property of the monarch.

The Channel Islands acknowledge the overlordship of the Monarch, as does the Isle of Man, but in effect they are completely self governing entities with their own currencies and do not officially fly the Union Flag, not do they have any representation in the UK Parliament. UK citizens have no automatic right of residency either. Nor are they part of the EU. So Wales is clearly NOT like them. It is no more the personal property of the Monarch than any other part of the United Kingdom is. Nor is it the personal property of HRH the Duke of Rothesay!

And your usage of appanage cannot be correct here as this refers to granting of titles and estates to younger male children of the Monarch whereas the the title "Prince of Wales" can only be granted to the eldest male child of a UK Monarch.

You should hold your water. Lichtenstein is an appanage of the King of Bohemia and is 100% the property of the current representer of that now-defunct kingdom. Monaco is a 19th century invention of French politics-- and owes its status to the political expediency (and on going grace and favour) of succeeding French governments.

What effect this has on the Principality v Kingdom argument I cannot fathom as we are dealing with nomenclature and not with how they originally came into being.

The Welsh National Assembly does not have anything near the powers of the Scottish National Talking Shop. This was one of the gripes voiced by Plaid Cyrmu when the WNA was created. So, theoretically, does Quebec, but neither prospect is likely. I think, if you go back and read the Act, you will discover that independence can not be achieved by a unilateral decision in either Wales or Scotland.

The powers are increasing all the time and more and more are being devolved though tax raising powers were not included as they were in Scotland. The phrase Wales Assembly Government is now also officially used. What is also interesting is that those who were die hard opponents at the time of the referendum now take a full and enthusiastic part in proceedings and the building in which the members meet is called the Senedd complete with its own Mace. The position regarding both Wales and Scotland is that a referendum would have to be held and neither Plaid or the SNP would be likely, even if they gained a majority in government, to go for one unless they felt there was a reasonable prospect of success. Quebec has tried it twice so far and the margin narrowed between the two.

It is true that if Puerto Rico chose statehood over its commonwealth status, it would be accorded a star on the national flag. That is because it would be coming into the union. In the instance of Wales, like it or not, it has been a part of "greater Britain" since at least 1536, if not since Edward I took it, and sliced it up, and divvied it out to his pals, in 1283.

Look, I'm all in favour of people having cultural pride-- like I said originally, I think it's great that Welsh men and women fly the livery banner of "Bluff King Hal" as their own. But, to accord Wales a special place on the national flag? Sorry Trefor, you just haven't managed to convince me that it's the thing that needs to be done.

Ah but the people or Puerto Rico would have the option of freely choosing, something that was denied to the Welsh. Virginia chose to be in a state of rebellion against a King a couple of centuries ago as I recall...

And the old canard of a special place! We currently don't have any place on it! England, Scotland and Ireland have a special place on the flag as they are on it! Each state of your Union has its own flag which I am sure is proudly flown yet each star on the national flag is equal.

Sure there is a lot of debate and maybe if the Draig Coch was stuck on it would look special and also be out of keeping with the Saints flags designs of the rest. But would the Cross of St David merged with those of George, Andrew and Patrick look like it was having a special place?

An interesting article and set of comments, pro and con, can be found at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...g-says-MP.html

Irrelevant really. From Henry VIII onwards, the King of England was also the King of Ireland, until the Act of Union, 1801. A monarchy is not the same as a democracy, the opinion of the people is unimportant. On a related note, it also makes me laugh that in the UK, the media has debates as to who should be the next monarch.... don't those people realise they should be abasing themselves, tugging their forelocks and certainly not being vulgar enough to voice an opinion about their betters?

The concept of absolute monarchy started getting a bashing in the 1640s and the mystique in the 1950s. Now deference is not automatic either.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Trefor, before addressing your latest series of arguments, I thought it wise to remind you of what exactly is the Union flag.

It is, strictly and legally speaking, the flag of the government and navy of the United Kingdom. It was created in 1606 to resolve the problem of one king with two navies, each with different flags. Later, under Queen Anne its use was extended to use on land (the army) and, under George III, it was modified in form to include Ireland and to extend the use of the flag by merchant vessels. It is not, in any way, shape, or form, a "national flag" in the same sense that the flag of the United States is a national flag.

Notwithstanding the whinging and parsing of emotional argument, Scotland has a flag. England has a flag. Historically Ireland had a flag. For purposes of maritime convenience these three flags were combined into a single "navy" flag. End of message and get over it.

Englishmen still have a flag (cross of St. George); Scotsmen still have a flag (cross of St. Andrew); Irish men still have a flag (cross of St. Patrick-- the tricolour is a "governmental and naval" flag); Welshmen still have a flag (take your pick-- Henry Tudor's personal livery banner; the quartered lions passant flag; the cross of St. David).

Nobody, it seems, is deliberately picking on the Welsh, despite what "popular sentiment"-- whatever that is-- may imply.

I think the idea of changing the Union flag is a total non runner, even if Wales suddenly developed a navy or a merchant maritime presence equal to that of, say, modern day Ireland.

Probably the best Wales can hope for is UDI in Northern Ireland. Once-- or rather if-- that happens then the Royal Arms will have to be amended. This has happened before; removing France (replaced by Ireland) in 1801 and then dropping the escutcheon of Hanover 1837. With Ireland gone the Royal arms would be England 1st & 4th quarters, Scotland 2nd & 3rd quarters. Wales, like the kingdom of Hanover before it, could then be represented in an escutcheon of pretense in the center.

Should that come to pass I, for one, would be the first to endorse such a measure. Frankly, as a herald, I was always curious why, when Hanover was removed from the Royal Arms due to Salic Law, Wales didn't take its place.

Perhaps you should lobby the WNA to unanimously petition Her Majesty to grant Wales the honour of being included in the Royal Arms. Or would that smack of deference and go against the "republican" grain?

[thanmuwa]

It is, strictly and legally speaking, the flag of the government and navy of the United Kingdom.
.................
It is not, in any way, shape, or form, a "national flag" in the same sense that the flag of the United States is a national flag.

How is the flag of the government not the flag of the nation? Notwithstanding the fact that the Union flag IS used in practise as the flag of the UK.

.....Irish men still have a flag (cross of St. Patrick-- the tricolour is a "governmental and naval" flag);

This is a bit misleading; the The flag of St Patrick as a national flag of Ireland is of dubious -at very best- provenance and the tricolour is absolutely nothing to do with the UK.

I think the idea of changing the Union flag is a total non runner, even if Wales suddenly developed a navy or a merchant maritime presence equal to that of, say, modern day Ireland.

What has the modern day navy or merchant maritime presence of Ireland got to do with the Union Flag?

Probably the best Wales can hope for is UDI in Northern Ireland. Once-- or rather if-- that happens then the Royal Arms will have to be amended.

1) UDI? Northern Ireland? Some hope.
2) Shouldn't the royal Arms be amended right now? The Harp is the symbol of Ireland, not NI.

Perhaps you should lobby the WNA to unanimously petition Her Majesty to grant Wales the honour of being included in the Royal Arms. Or would that smack of deference and go against the "republican" grain?

Perhaps Ireland should sue her, to remove the harp?

[McClef]

This latest contribution from MOR seems to imply that the Union Flag has no actual legal status at all!

Apart from a naval flag that is...

Well back in 1908 Parliamentary approval was given that this should be regarded as the National flag and has been taken as such for somewhat longer. It is a recognised flag around the world.

And the idea that the Welsh cannot be sailors is plain insulting. The fact that it has no naval base cannot decry the Welshmen who have served for centuries in the "Senior Service". The ports of Wales provided coal to the world from Porthmadog to Cardiff. Watch the movie "Tiger Bay" sometime.

I did not know we had a member of the College of Heralds residing in Virginia...

Oh dear you have got me defending the Union Flag now, imperfect and discriminatory as it is.

Yes indeed, Wales is not represented upon the Royal Standard either (interestingly that is different in Scotland with the Royal Standard of Scotland in the first and fourth quadrants whereas in England it is only in the second quadrant).

There could indeed be a case for a Royal Standard in Wales following the Scottish model. Neither the Queen nor Prince Charles have an official residence in Wales from which they could fly it, however, and the brief visits to the Senedd would make its appearance somewhat rare.

There are problems involved even in dropping, say the fourth quadrant lions of England for the Lions in the Welsh standard however as there the first and fourth with a red lion on a gold field, and the second and third with a gold lion on a red field would be difficult to squeeze in.

That the Kingdom of Hanover should ever have been on the Royal Standard will be a surprise to many Welshmen in the first place even as an "escutcheon of pretense"!

I for one am no republican and believe it or not many nationalists are still monarchists.

[macwilkin]

How is the flag of the government not the flag of the nation? Notwithstanding the fact that the Union flag IS used in practise as the flag of the UK.

This is a bit misleading; the The flag of St Patrick as a national flag of Ireland is of dubious -at very best- provenance and the tricolour is absolutely nothing to do with the UK.

What has the modern day navy or merchant maritime presence of Ireland got to do with the Union Flag?

1) UDI? Northern Ireland? Some hope.
2) Shouldn't the royal Arms be amended right now? The Harp is the symbol of Ireland, not NI.

Perhaps Ireland should sue her, to remove the harp?

Just a couple of points:

1. The harp is used as a symbol in Ulster, usually with a crown -- if you look at the regimental badge of the Royal Irish Regiment and its "ancestors", you will see a number of regiments (including the Royal Irish Rifles & Rangers, the Ulster Defence Regiment and the old RUC) use the "crown and harp" badge, so your statement that the harp is not a symbol of NI/Ulster is incorrect.

2. A number of countries have flags that may be flown by government/military personnel only; for example, only recently in the last decade did the Republic of India allow its citizens to fly the Indian flag. Many countries have two versions of the flag, one for general use and a "state" or "war" flag.

3. The Cross of St. Patrick is gaining popularity, especially among loyalists in Ulster and among those in the Republic who favour increased ties with the UK. For example, the Reform Movement uses the Cross of St. Patrick:

http://www.reform.org/

Regards,

Todd

[skauwt]

I'd remind that the OP (who is a Scot by the way) mearly intended to wish the English a happy Saint George's Day, not to stoke the fires of civil war. Calm down chaps, it was all a long time ago.

well the saying "a can of worms" comes to mind here if i had known wishing my neighbours all the best on a national day was gonna stir all this national madness id have sent a private pm instead to all the Englishmen

man made invisible boundaries seem to be a big thing on this site I'm not religious but who was it that authorized the book with the saying "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"
i must find a rod as all those worms surely could be useful for something

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

How is the flag of the government not the flag of the nation? Notwithstanding the fact that the Union flag IS used in practise as the flag of the UK.

Because at the time (1606) each country had a distinct flag. This was flown from the top mast of the ship with the Union flag flown off the stern. Just because some people in Scotland mistakenly fly the "Red Lion" as the Scottish flag (it's not; it is the personal banner of the sovereign) doesn't make it so. The same applies in England-- St. George's banner is the "national flag" not the Union flag.

This is a bit misleading; the The flag of St Patrick as a national flag of Ireland is of dubious -at very best- provenance and the tricolour is absolutely nothing to do with the UK.

(1) Perhaps you missed the history bit: until 1921 the flag of Ireland was the St. Patrick's cross. After independence the tricolour was adopted as the the governmental and military flag. (2) At no time did I suggest that the Irish tricolour had anything to do with the UK, so I fail to see the point of your comment.

What has the modern day navy or merchant maritime presence of Ireland got to do with the Union Flag?

Nothing. Go back and re-read what I wrote.

1) UDI? Northern Ireland? Some hope.

I was being sarcastic. You are being literal.

2) Shouldn't the royal Arms be amended right now? The Harp is the symbol of Ireland, not NI.

Politics aside, the harp of the Irish Government is different than the harp on the Royal Arms. The harp on the Royal Arms indicates sovereignty over that portion of the island of Ireland where the monarch still holds sway. The "Ulster flag" is a regional flag, not a national flag.

Perhaps Ireland should sue her, to remove the harp?

Yeah... except the country couldn't afford the court costs.

[Dan R Porter]

Its getting steamy in here. All those places produce some fine drinks. Lets have one and relax!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Well back in 1908 Parliamentary approval was given that this should be regarded as the National flag and has been taken as such for somewhat longer.

Actually, it would require a Royal Warrant being issued by HM to extend the right to fly the Union flag to other than the Government and military of the UK.

It is a recognised flag around the world.

Absolutely. To expand, somewhat, on what I have stated elsewhere, I rather doubt anyone cares that the British civil population usually gets it wrong when it comes to the status of the Union flag. That there are four distinct "territories" each with its own flag does tend to muddle things a bit for the average football fan.

And the idea that the Welsh cannot be sailors is plain insulting. The fact that it has no naval base cannot decry the Welshmen who have served for centuries in the "Senior Service". The ports of Wales provided coal to the world from Porthmadog to Cardiff.

Get off your high horse, put on your spectacles, and read what I wrote. NO WHERE did I write, or imply, anything disrespectful of Welsh seamen. The point I did make (and which you missed by a mile) was that in 1606, 1707, and 1801 Wales didn't have a navy or a merchant marine. Therefore there was no need to include Wales in the decision concerning Admiralty rules regarding the flying of flags at sea.

Yes indeed, Wales is not represented upon the Royal Standard either (interestingly that is different in Scotland with the Royal Standard of Scotland in the first and fourth quadrants whereas in England it is only in the second quadrant).

Actually this is no longer the case; the Royal Arms are the same both north and south of the Tweed.

There are problems involved even in dropping, say the fourth quadrant lions of England for the Lions in the Welsh standard however as there the first and fourth with a red lion on a gold field, and the second and third with a gold lion on a red field would be difficult to squeeze in.

The Royal Arms (as distinct from the personal arms of the sovereign) are arms of dominion, and as such the quarters represent distinct kingdoms; the status of Wales as a principality would mitigate against including it in any quarter. That being the case, the heraldically logical place for the Arms of the Principality of Wales would seem to be in an escutcheon of pretense in the center of the Royal Arms.

I for one am no republican and believe it or not many nationalists are still monarchists.

What cheery news!