Similarities between Native American Pow-Wows and Highland Games

[Riverkilt]

Ummm, Highland Logan....not sure what context you mean it in when you ask when the Scots were conquered....understand if you're saying something along the lines of diehard old Rebels. -"The South Will Rise Again"...but if you're straight - Culloden would be one example...if Scots hadn't been conquered they'd not been prohibited from wearing the tartan etc.

Ron

Ron

[Highland Logan]

Ummm, Highland Logan....not sure what context you mean it in when you ask when the Scots were conquered....understand if you're saying something along the lines of diehard old Rebels. -"The South Will Rise Again"...but if you're straight - Culloden would be one example...if Scots hadn't been conquered they'd not been prohibited from wearing the tartan etc.

Ron

Ron

No I mean "When were the Scots conquered?"; why does this myth still exist. Culloden was the last battle in a civil war, in which the Crown won. Most Scots were for the Crown, not against it, this also included most of the Clans.

Frank

[TexasMcGregor]

Actually, the Principal Chief of the Cherokee, John Ross (who had considerable Scottish heritage), first attempted to keep the tribe neutral, but then embraced the Union cause. The Ridge Party, which Ross and others who had opposed removal to the Indian Territory, favored the Confederacy, mostly due to their dependence on slave agriculture.

I stand corrected. It has been awhile since I read the declaration and I did not save it nor do I have any idea how I found it in the first place. The joys of web searches with a mind that is not even close to linear.

Thank you for your corrected information.

[Riverkilt]

So, perhaps a better historian than I can help me understand why, if so many Scots were for the crown why the crown came down so heavily on the Scots after Culloden?

Ron

[KFCarter]

So, perhaps a better historian than I can help me understand why, if so many Scots were for the crown why the crown came down so heavily on the Scots after Culloden?

Ron

I'm sure the explanation isn't simple and I am no historian, just an avid reader of history. Some incomplete thoughts: there was a sense on the part of many that Highlanders needed to be brought out of their "savage" state for their own good and that beyond that there was a moral imperative to see land put to higher uses than those exercised by the native tribal/clan society (sounds like Andrew Jackson relocating the Cherokee, doesn't it?). I think these themes continued to play out in many ways and for many decades and found their expression in social, economic, religious and military events.

I especially can't explain why so many Scots who came to this country after Culloden fought for the crown during the Revolution. The fact is, the more I read about the whole story the more complex it all becomes. The book Todd recommended earlier in the thread (3rd post) is an excellent book and if you're pondering these questions, it's a highly recommended read.

[Riverkilt]

So yet another similarity. Many Native Americans wound up scouting for/fighting for the U.S. Army...

[KFCarter]

So yet another similarity. Many Native Americans wound up scouting for/fighting for the U.S. Army...

And a lot of interweaving of ironies... there were a lot of Highland names among the Cherokee who walked the Trail of Tears. And if I understand it correctly, "helping" native, tribal peoples down the path of civilization (by force if necessary) was in part an outgrowth of an idea of the Scottish Enlightenment: that nature could and should be improved by strong, high-purposed intervention. That kind of intervention was practiced big time in the Highlands and North America.

I'm really only at the "Cliff Notes" level right now and I'm sure Cajunscot could school all of us in great detail, but in the meantime you really might want to check out that book, Ron, I think you'd really get a lot out of it.

[PGH]

Ummm, Highland Logan....not sure what context you mean it in when you ask when the Scots were conquered....understand if you're saying something along the lines of diehard old Rebels. -"The South Will Rise Again"...but if you're straight - Culloden would be one example...if Scots hadn't been conquered they'd not been prohibited from wearing the tartan etc.

Culloden was NOT a battle for Scottish independence. It was a battle to decide which of James I/VI great great grandchildren would be king of Great Britain. There were English units on the Jacobite side and more Scots on the government side than the Jacobite side. Some of the Scottish regiments that we love so much today got their start putting down the Jacobite rebellion. Culloden was not in any way shape or form an England versus Scotland fight for freedom.

Also, the bagpipes have never been banned anywhere in the United Kingdom. Neither were they banned in Ireland. These are persistent myths but myths none the less.

The bobdunsire website has a History/Tradition section where this dead horse is flogged on a regular basis. Linkie to one of the more interesting threads...

http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/...ghlight=banned

[PGH]

So, perhaps a better historian than I can help me understand why, if so many Scots were for the crown why the crown came down so heavily on the Scots after Culloden?

Ron

They didn't come down heavily on the Scots. They came down heavily on the Highlanders that supported the rebellion.

After Culloden the Highlander's worst enemy was his clan chief. The Clearances were Scotland's equivalent of the Enclosure Act in England. The nobility in both countries essentially switched from a feudal system and communal usage of land to one of ownership and no duty to the peasants on that land.

[macwilkin]

So yet another similarity. Many Native Americans wound up scouting for/fighting for the U.S. Army...

Just a quick note on this subject: it should be pointed out that mant Native Anericans saw Europeans and Americans as potential allies against enemies; Cotrez, for example, was able to defeat the Aztecs because their neighbours were the constant victims of Aztec aggresion.

During the Indian Wars, the Pawnee Nation raised two regiments for service against the Sioux; the Pawnee today are very proud of the fact that they have never fought against the US goverment.

A few Indian leaders, such as Tecumseh, tried to get past tribal rivalries and feuds, but even he couldn't accomplish that lofty goal.

Hollywood tends to gloss over tribal feuds and rivalries to present a "pan-Indian" resistance movement, but this is too simplistic a view of the Indian Wars. If you want to see one of the most accurate depictions of European/Native relations on film, Bruce Beresford's Black Robe, based on Brian Moore's novel gets the blue ribbon from me. Beresford also directed Breaker Morant.

Regards,

Todd