Scots Wikipaedia

[highlander_Daz]

Im not convinced, that classing a regional dialect of English can rightly be described as a language in itself, its status as a "regional or minority language" is patronising to the extreme and, certainly lowlands scots dialect should be preserved, but at the end of the day it is English with slang and phonetic spelling of lowland prounounciation of words common to the English language, talkng "Scots" suggests that all Scots speak in this way, clearly its not the case, it is representiive of how Scots speak in one part of the country, a more accurate description would be "Borders or lowland Regional English dialect"

I wish people would put the same effort into preserving Gàidhlig.

[thanmuwa]

"My schools" (I presume you mean schools in the UK) do appear to be pretty poor. 10 year old kids appear to be struggling with books I read when I was 6. On this side of the Atlantic, the perception is that things are even worse over there, that US schoolkids are too busy smuggling guns and drugs into school to worry about education, but I have no idea how true that is.... Comparisons to other European education systems certainly seems to come out poorly for the UK.

As far as your "gun and drug smuggling" comments go, I am sure that you have probably offended any number of teachers on this forum, and leave it to you to decide if you should make amends for what I can only assume to be a lapse of judgment in your attempt to show some sort of superior standard of education in the UK.

Try rereading what I actually wrote. I said that UK schools are poor and that there is a common perception here that US schools are, perhaps due to their troubles, poorer (the only coverage we get of US schools here is either the massacres themselves or when another metal detector is installed somewhere along with the resulting confiscated handguns, knives, heroin etc). I went on to say that I had no idea of the veracity of that perception. I do suspect that you read it properly the first time and are just keeping your political speaking techniques in practise . In a verbal debate, the technique of pretending your opposite number insulted someone works well, but not so much when the original statements remain to be quoted .

The inescapable fact is that the numbers mentioned by Meyers (and my, my, but doesn't he get up your nose?) have been reported in other Irish papers (The Irish Times, for instance) and accurately reflect the findings of the Irish government.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the accuracy and significance of your numbers.

I have not implied that Irish speakers are necessarily poor at English. I have, however, stated the opposite to be true.

The opposite? What is the opposite of that sentence? Irish speakers are necessarily good at English?

In point of fact kids attending Irish language schools generally don't do well in English because it is assumed that they will learn all they need by watching television... English is poorly taught in the "gaelscoileanna".

Where is your evidence that English lessons in Gaelscoileanna consist of sitting the kids in front of a television? Ireland has national curricula for school subjects. The kids in the Gaelscoileanna have the same curriculum for English as the kids in the English speaking schools i.e. they are expected to have a fluent level of the language. And kids from Gaelscoileanna on average do better than the national average in English.

One of the major problems that faces Irish teachers is that Irish lacks a standard of pronunciation. For wholly political reasons no one has had the balls to sit down and come up with a standard pronunciation for even the simplest words. When I was doing my 'fresher in Irish at Gael Linn our two instructors nearly came to blows over the difference in Donegal Irish and Kerry Irish of the pronunciation of "fuinneoig" (window).

There are three dialects of Irish. The standardised spelling is just that, spelling. The idea of settling on one pronunciation would be like saying that one accent of American English was right and that from now on, only words pronounced in e.g. a Boston accent were correct. I believe there is a song about that very subject, mentioning red fruit and "apples of the earth". I'll just say that, obviously, Connacht Irish is correct . As an aside, only one dialect is required to be spoken for Irish school exams, but aural comprehension of the other two is a part of the exams.

Interesting though it is (to me) I think that I will stop talking about Irish and stay on the topic of Scots from now until this thread is locked .

SCOTS
....
Only with a structured written standard, complete with dictionaries and other educational literature, can the language be properly taught.
Yes, Scots is, for the most part, is mutually intelligible to English-speakers, but many languages within a related group can make this claim. To call Scots English is to call Scottish Gaelic Irish.

I think the phrase is a Dialect continuum (a gradual change of language over distance rather than a sudden change when you get to a border). English (and Scots) are part of the Germanic continuum, Italian, Spanish etc are part of the Romance (Latin) one and I am sure there are many others.... Two people who live a mile from each other on either side of the German-Dutch border will often speak a more similar language than comparing the language of our German border-dweller with a native Bavarian..

there is NO "scots language" no matter what Alex Salmond or anyone else wants to believe, its ENGLISH with slang and regional variations thrown in.

There is a famous phrase "A language is a dialect with an army and navy" which is a bit flippant but makes the point that it is very difficult even for the experts to tell when a regional dialect stops and a different language begins. One indicator is that a language has its own literature. Scots did (Burns being the prime example). I don't think it can really be said to have a dedicated literature any more as standard english spelling (with a small number of notable exceptions) is used for scottish literature these days...

Im not convinced, that classing a regional dialect of English can rightly be described as a language in itself, its status as a "regional or minority language" is patronising to the extreme and, certainly lowlands scots dialect should be preserved, but at the end of the day it is English with slang and phonetic spelling of lowland prounounciation of words common to the English language, talkng "Scots" suggests that all Scots speak in this way, clearly its not the case, it is representiive of how Scots speak in one part of the country, a more accurate description would be "Borders or lowland Regional English dialect"

I don't see how it is patronising (Gàidhlig would be described similarly). A body of literature did exist for Scots, so there is a reasonable basis for it having been a historical language. To my eye, it looks about as different from English as Dutch and German from each other, or Italian and Spanish. I don't have a clue what Burns was on about! However, whether it still exists as a regional language or, as you say, just a dialect is debatable and clearly incendiary .

I wish people would put the same effort into preserving Gàidhlig.

I am not sure what more could be done. Gàidhlig language TV and radio stations exist (I love listening to them, a big chunk of the words are the same as Irish). Gàidhlig cartoons are on nationwide Scottish BBC TV in the morning and Gàidhlig programmes occasionally in the evenings. Scot's doesn't get the same cover!

[thanmuwa]

perhaps it could be something to do with living in a large vally inbetween the highland and lowlands that stops you seeing those big lumpy things

Can't get much lower than a valley! The Lowlands in my head is this.

[skauwt]

well if the "Central Scotland Fire and Rescue Service" and Central Scotland Police force" say they are in the central belt then I'm sorry but thats alot better evidence than wikipedia for stating where i live


which is the central belt ......if you want think think you live in the lowlands fair doo`s thats your choice


http://www.centralscotland.police.uk/localpolicing/
http://www.centralscotlandfire.gov.uk/

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the accuracy and significance of your numbers.

We may disagree on the significance of the numbers, but the accuracy is beyond refute, or parsing.

However, more to the point:

There are three dialects of Irish.

Well, technically yes. However the most widely encountered dialect is that version of Irish spoken in the greater Dubln area, where between one third and one half of all children learning Gaelic in school live, work, and play. Just as there is a vast difference between the English spoken in Cork and Dublin, so too has "Dublin Irish" developed its own peculiar dialect-- which drives the "proper" Gaelic speakers nuts. It's not that the kids aren't instructed in one of the three approved dialects, it's that they don't pick it up-- it doesn't sink in-- they still sound like "Dubs", and as far as they're concerned, that's an end to it. They don't want what they perceive to be a culchie accent when they speak Irish.

And frankly, most of them don't want to learn the language, which I view as a pity.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread on the language of the Scots... because "The Irish Question" has reached the point where it is even boring to my dog.

[thanmuwa]

well if the "Central Scotland Fire and Rescue Service" and Central Scotland Police force" say they are in the central belt then I'm sorry but thats alot better evidence than wikipedia for stating where i live

The Central Belt is part of the Lowlands. The Lowlands are made up of the Central Lowlands (also known as the Central Belt) and the Southern Uplands (part of which is the Scottish Borders). In fact, you have a much stronger claim to be a Lowlander than the guys you are probably thinking of as Lowlanders (I am guessing the bit you think of as the Lowlands is the Southern Uplands? ie Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders?). If you don't like Wikipedia, how about this academic gazetteer?
Gazetteer for Scotland

[skauwt]

The Central Belt is part of the Lowlands. The Lowlands are made up of the Central Lowlands (also known as the Central Belt) and the Southern Uplands (part of which is the Scottish Borders). In fact, you have a much stronger claim to be a Lowlander than the guys you are probably thinking of as Lowlanders (I am guessing the bit you think of as the Lowlands is the Southern Uplands? ie Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders?). If you don't like Wikipedia, how about this academic gazetteer?
Gazetteer for Scotland

all i`ll say to that is "lol" i think its time to put the broken vinyl away now don't you ?

[thanmuwa]

all i`ll say to that is "lol" i think its time to put the broken vinyl away now don't you ?

Although a forum is not exactly a reliable source of information, someone might actually think, because you are Scottish, you might know what you are talking about. I would hate for people to be misinformed as a result .

It is directly relevant to the topic too, because the Lowlands is the home of the language known as Scots and people may like to know where it was traditionally spoken. It would be an error to exclude Glasgow and the rest of the Central Belt from that heritage...

[skauwt]

[quote=thanmuwa;758437] because you are Scottish, you might know what you are talking about. I would hate for people to be misinformed as a result .
quote]

slightly personal getting now,thats a few times that statement has come from yourself directed at me

if folk want to take one mans word for it then so be it but if they think everything i say is gospel then perhaps they outta do some more research in person rather than reading one mans opinion ive merly stated my views on the subject

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

[QUOTE=skauwt;758456]

because you are Scottish, you might know what you are talking about. I would hate for people to be misinformed as a result .
quote]

slightly personal getting now,thats a few times that statement has come from yourself directed at me

if folk want to take one mans word for it then so be it but if they think everything i say is gospel then perhaps they outta do some more research in person rather than reading one mans opinion ive merly stated my views on the subject

Skauwt--

Just ignore the Trolls-In-Training and eventually they'll slink back to their wee little cave under the bridge...

As for me, I tend to give more weight to the opinion of those actually on the ground, then those merely looking at "maps".

Cheers, Mr. Chisholm, CHEERS!