craftsmen/artisans vs Cheap goods

[MMorgan]

I brew my own beer.... does that count for anything

Actually I am also one of the odd ones that tend to have alot of the "older" skills that my peers and the ones younger then me just dont seem to care about. 30-40 years ago Everyone had to learn to do things themselves or do without so it was common place to be able to sew,cook,work on the car,work with wood/leather/metal, hunt,fish etc etc... And in being able to do those things people ALSO understood what it took to do those thing WELL or to be a Master (or even journeyman) so thay appreciated the work involved and was willing to work and save or trade/barter to get what they wanted and take care of what they got...

[DWFII]

I knew that you couldn't be that pessimistic, DWFII.

* BTW, it is the pessimistic; there is no hope for the world; everything is wrong with everything now a days; that felt insulting to me. *

Ted,

I am that pessimistic...you missed the part about me doubting that the numbers are significant.

I would also like to think I am a "hard-eyed realist." Not for me the lala land, pollyanna-esque, somewhere-over-the-rainbow, whistling past the graveyard...and all that. That's just telling yourself stories--fairy tales, mostly. And once you get into the habit of doing that you can convince yourself of anything...including the notion that the movie version of the Braveheart tartan is historically justified...especially with a good backstory. Or that a $100.00 kilt is as good as, or on a par with, a $500.00 kilt.

I don't dwell on the negative but I'm quick to see asymmetry and contradiction. All that's part of being a Tradesman (craftsman)--someone who works with his/her hands. To do that you must be critical...self-critical. You must have an internal hierarchy of "good, better, best," with very little room for greyscale. And know where your work sits within that hierarchy. And how to get getter.

Without that perspective, the whole notion of quality loses meaning.

All that said, I am also eternally hopeful. I consider it both a strength and a weakness. I will continue to preach and teach and write and oppose the forces of entropy and barbarism to my dying day...even knowing it's a losing cause. Not because I'm particularly noble or some knight in shining armour but simply because the alternative is too bleak to contemplate.

[DWFII]

I would guess that there are many folks here on XMTS (and many more who are not) who do appreciate quality, who do appreciate the time and skill invested in a particular item, and who would love to own said item, but, because of mortgages and job losses and children's expenses and other limitations, cannot buy the hand-made item and so resort to the mass-produced one....

I agree with you. We all of us have our priorities and eating tends to be high on the list.

But I would observe that...at least as I understand it...this discussion is about "quality." How to perceive it, how to achieve it.

To my mind, once we introduce monetary considerations into the picture we so completely obscure the idea of quality that it becomes meaningless. Money can never, ever, be a modifier or a factor in perceiving or achieving quality.

Money may be a factor in whether we can afford quality but it doesn't make something that we can afford quality...or something we can't afford, trash.

And the same is true for the Tradesman...you cannot punch a clock and create quality. It takes what it takes. You cannot pinch pennies (in raw materials) and create quality. Any made object is only as good as what it is made of.

Once cost and/or money becomes a factor the whole idea of quality becomes moot.

[tyger]

I am the grandson of a sharecropper. William Barnett Goodwin raised his family cropping cotton on shares. If that sounds shocking to you, that's fine with me, because it is pretty much shocking to me too. I am 56 years old. It wasn't that long ago.

Posters to this thread have identified 3 groups: people who make do for themselves in myriad self-sufficient ways, people who make money or barter for goods through a skill, practice, or trade, and people who do neither. I have no doubt that each of us can correctly guess which group is the largest. And while the future is always hard to predict, I think that most people who know where they have come from are not blind to the directions that the future offers.

When I decided to get a kilt, and accessories, I decided that I had to have a craftsman-made sporran, belt, buckle, and so forth. How hard it is to find a metalsmith to make a buckle for you? How hard it is to find a buckle that isn't chrome, steel, cast pewter, epoxy, or fake "silver." How hard was it 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago? I'll bet your answer was quite correct.

Ever-diminishing trade resources puts a demand upon those same resources, much the same way that the last library of books will be in demand for those who want to hold a book in their hand. One can actually see that coming.

I surely do wish and pray that there will always be people who are willing and able to do good things, the hard things, and the distasteful things that others choose not to do. The future that we make for ourselves and our children will depend on it.

[ronstew]

In these parts, "sustainability" has been a buzzword for ten or fifteen years. One aspect of sustainability is densification - packing more people into land. The more you do that, the fewer people are going to do their own hunting or baking. Densification makes industrial agriculture and massed produced goods absolutely necessary. (I have always felt the sustainability crowd holds conflicting beliefs, but that is perhaps a topic for onother thread.)

DWFII - wrt to hunting your own meat, I have some confessions. If I had to choose one beverage for the rest of my life it would be milk. The fresher the better. But the one day I had a chance to drink milk straight from the bucket, I just couldn't do it. And I am a renowned meat-eater, as long as the meat comes from a butcher or in a plastic wrapper. But when my brother the hunter offers me a fine cut of venison, I cannot stomach it. And then there were the berries that I threw away last week because I found worms in them.

I like mass-produced, impersonal, genetically modified, Monsanto factory food. I shouldn't, but I do.

[tyger]

And I am a renowned meat-eater, as long as the meat comes from a butcher or in a plastic wrapper. But when my brother the hunter offers me a fine cut of venison, I cannot stomach it.

That reminds me of joke about the woman who was giving the hunter the devil because he had a deer in the back of his pickup truck. She said: "Why can't you get your meat at the grocery store like all the rest of us!"


It's fine that you like the packaged product! I do too. That means that it is also fine that men and women can package their own. I like that too!

[DWFII]

DWFII - wrt to hunting your own meat, I have some confessions...

Hey, I don't hunt or milk anymore, either. But I have done. And I think it is essential to have done both to really appreciate what you are consuming.

A person doesn't really know what is involved in eating meat until they have killed an animal and watched the light go out of its eyes. And yes, felt remorse. And if you are any kind of thinking/feeling person that remorse will stay with you for the rest of your life.

And that's really the issue as I see it. Too many people walking around with no remorse; no connection to the processes...the focus, the sweat (and blood), and the often painful growth...that go into a Rab Gordan, for instance; little or no respect for the sensibilities and traditions of cultures that are so blithely adopted and then misconstrued.

And again, I didn't really intend that my remarks be an indictment of anyone in particular or even any particular choice an individual makes. We all have our own priorities...often driven by necessity. [Although indifference does tend to be cumulative--enough disrespect, enough impassivity, and pretty soon "Jack's a dull boy," indeed.]

But the topic, as I understand it is "quality" and what I was getting at was that doing for yourself...producing something tangible, within a hierarchy of self-criticism and "good, better, best"...is probably the only way to understand what quality really is. Even if you've only done it occasionally...there, in those random moments, are the seeds of understanding.

I've spent the better part of my adult life thinking about this issue. Of course that doesn't mean my words are writ in stone. But it is critical to me simply because I want to insure that my Trade, and a certain respect...maybe even reverence...for beauty and quality, endures.

And that's not a given in a predominantly materialistic, consumer driven, society such as ours is...or is becoming.

[crboltz]

I worked as a lighting designer for theatre for a while (I now teach lighting with some design on the side). We (Lighting Designers) are almost always hired last, show up the least and charge an arm and a leg per hour. I had one regular client who asked what she could do to get my price down -- and I was very honest (and she now pays the least of my regular clients): Hire me early, keep me involved. If I'm not coming in to save the day all the time, I'm less stressed and don't have to charge as much. Its back to the Quality/Price/Time triangle, pick any two.

And I do think people notice quality. I have two sporrans I wear regularly: A Thorrfinn, and a cheap one from Frugal corner. Both get the job done. Both look nice. Only one ever gets compliments, and that is the one what was hand made for me by an artisan -- no Artist -- who took the time to look at our wedding pictures and make sporrans for my husband and I that were perfect for us because they had been made for us.

My USA Kilt, and my tank are the best fitting kilts I have -- why? because they were made for me, not off the shelf. I expect my new Alt Kilt to be in the same boat. Does that mean I won't wear my UK, SWK, or my Frugal Corner kilts anymore? No, they have their uses too -- I'm not going to mow the yard in my tank. And I can throw my UK in the washing machine. Great. But I don't mix up the quality.

When we attended the theatre with a friend who is used to seeing me in kilts, I wore the tank. She just stared at me (well, especially my back side). She finally apologized to my husband commenting that: "I can't believe it, those are actually pleats. They line up so well, and are so tight it looks like one continuous piece of fabric, I can't begin to figure out how someone does that."

Quality can't be faked. When something is hand done for a specific client, and made with pride you can always tell. Its magic.

And worth the money!

(I'll put my soap box away now)

Chris

[Bugbear]

Ted,

I am that pessimistic...you missed the part about me doubting that the numbers are significant.

I would also like to think I am a "hard-eyed realist." Not for me the lala land, pollyanna-esque, somewhere-over-the-rainbow, whistling past the graveyard...and all that. That's just telling yourself stories--fairy tales, mostly. And once you get into the habit of doing that you can convince yourself of anything...including the notion that the movie version of the Braveheart tartan is historically justified...especially with a good backstory. Or that a $100.00 kilt is as good as, or on a par with, a $500.00 kilt.

I don't dwell on the negative but I'm quick to see asymmetry and contradiction. All that's part of being a Tradesman (craftsman)--someone who works with his/her hands. To do that you must be critical...self-critical. You must have an internal hierarchy of "good, better, best," with very little room for greyscale. And know where your work sits within that hierarchy. And how to get getter.

Without that perspective, the whole notion of quality loses meaning.

All that said, I am also eternally hopeful. I consider it both a strength and a weakness. I will continue to preach and teach and write and oppose the forces of entropy and barbarism to my dying day...even knowing it's a losing cause. Not because I'm particularly noble or some knight in shining armour but simply because the alternative is too bleak to contemplate.

I understand where you're coming from now.

[WeaselMender]

I have been a skilled craftsman for over 25 years now. I do not work at my craft after trying to make a living as a blacksmith 3 times on my own. The issue each time was I can do the work or I can market the work but I do not have time to do both. I shall however keep my skill up and continue to teach others as I can.

As to people and prices there is a proverb that says there are only 2 blacksmiths that ever went to hell, one hit cold iron, the other didn't charge enough. In the years that I did the show circuit I found that if I got tired of something not selling, raise the price it will sell before the day was out.

Value is something that people do not understand any more. Value is not price it is utility and quality, something has no value if it does not serve the puropse it was bought for, or breaks or becomes unusable before the job is done.

Weasel :ootd: