District Tartans?

[Jock Scot]

Matt,I would agree with what you say about the pedigree of district tartans and I have already said as much, here. All I think Phil and I have been trying to say is that whilst district tartans seem to have a relevance in the rest of the world they have little or no relevance to most of the locals here in Scotland. It would be a real shame if some one from abroad who had taken the time and no little expense to equip themselves with a district tartan for their once in a lifetime trip over here to be met with a blank look from a local who knows nothing about them.Some would be very disappointed with that reaction,at a guess. I firmly believe that people from abroad do, on the whole, try to observe local customs whilst being proud of their roots. I do, however think that they are needlessly complicating things by worrying too much. District tartans and box pleats are two complications that the visitor could do without, that's all. Nevertheless, it is their choice when all said and done.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

District tartans and box pleats are two complications that the visitor could do without, that's all. Nevertheless, it is their choice when all said and done.

I understand what you are saying, Jock. I just, personally, wouldn't view the things you mentioned (box pleats and district tartans), as "complications."

I would hope that someone who has taken the time and effort to put together a nice outfit that included a box pleated kilt in a district tartan would also have at least a basic understanding of their pedigree and not have their pride hurt when a native-Scot didn't recognize these items on sight.

The modern-day revivial of the older box pleated style since 1983 is attributed to kiltmaker Bob Martin, an American; but the idea was given to him by Dr. Michiel MacDonald, a Scottish anthrolopogist.

But back to the subject of district tartans, I think the concept of district tartans (and box pleated kilts, for that matter) are equally unfamiliar to most Americans, as well. When the average American thinks of a kilt, they think of the 8 yard, knife pleated kilts they are used to seeing worn by pipe bands. And when they think of tartan, it is clan tartan. Most have never heard of district tartans.

So I don't think the American wearing his district tartan over here is really in that much of a different situation than if he were wearing it in Scotland.

To be perfectly honest, though, not many notice the difference or even care. When I wear a box pleated kilt in a district tartan to a Highland Games, Burns Supper, or anywhere else, most observers simply think, "oh, that's a kilt and a tartan," and don't get much more specific than that. Enthusiasts who are a bit more interested than most might notice that my pleats look a bit different from other kilts they have seen. If they ask, I'll tell them about the style and its pedigree, and usually a nice conversation ensues.

Same thing about district tartans. If they ask what the tartan I'm wearing is and I say the name of a place, rather than a clan, they often express confusion. Their assumption is that the only true tartans are clan tartans. When I explain the history of district tartans, they are usually very interested.

But my point here is that most Americans -- even those heavily involved in Scottish cultural activities -- are most familiar with clan tartans and 8 yard kilts and anything outside of that is seen as a bit unusual: the same situation you describe in Scotland.

[Jock Scot]

Again I agree with what you say Matt. The complication bit that I am talking about is the visitor trying to fit in. There are dozens of threads, hundreds of posts here from prospective visitors wanting to do the right thing by us Scots.Are we such a worrying lot to visit,I wonder? Are the visitors so insecure? Of course the answer to both questions is no.We appreciate the visitors and we appreciate the fact that many ask questions so that they do fit in as best they can and enjoy their visit. Wearing the kilt in Scotland is a major part of that experience for many and that should not be forgotten. I still feel though that when the visitors do their research they seem to almost get the book of the older style of kilt and the oldest style of tartan which treads on no clan toes and go: "that's it, we can't be wrong if we get that!" The thing is, in theory they are right ,but in practice they are so nearly wrong and that is a shame for them. I am generalizing of course,but I think you know what I am saying.

[Bugbear]

Again I agree with what you say Matt. The complication bit that I am talking about is the visitor trying to fit in. There are dozens of threads, hundreds of posts here from prospective visitors wanting to do the right thing by us Scots.Are we such a worrying lot to visit,I wonder? Are the visitors so insecure? Of course the answer to both questions is no.We appreciate the visitors and we appreciate the fact that many ask questions so that they do fit in as best they can and enjoy their visit. Wearing the kilt in Scotland is a major part of that experience for many and that should not be forgotten. I still feel though that when the visitors do their research they seem to almost get the book of the older style of kilt and the oldest style of tartan which treads on no clan toes and go: "that's it, we can't be wrong if we get that!" The thing is, in theory they are right ,but in practice they are so nearly wrong and that is a shame for them. I am generalizing of course,but I think you know what I am saying.

I think I understand, to some degree, what you are saying, Jock. Though, I do not understand the desire to visit Scotland while wearing a kilt.

Another side to this is that the Scots have exported pieces of Scottish culture to this side of the world. Not the whole culture as it is in modern times, but bits and pieces across history that have become parts of our culture and have also been misunderstood or mixed up with other things. Old pictures and paintings can do this sometimes as they surface long after they have been created, but don't always have explanations of what is being depicted.

I don't think of any of these pieces as being "the" Scottish culture, but more like footprints.

I like box pleated kilts

[ForresterModern]

During my two weeks in Scotland last year, when I was kilted every day but one, I wore four different tartans, all in 8 yd 13 or 16 oz UK woven fabrics. Two were district tartans (Isle of Skye and Black Isle----no connections to me, but I like the look of those tartans so I bought them). Two were clan tartans (Forrester modern, a recently developed tartan as of about 1993 of a Border Clan, who should not technically historically have been tartan or kilt wearers----and MacDonald ancient, of which Forresters were an alleged sept, although the Douglases, as fellow borderers, probably have a better claim on that). In two weeks only one Scot innkeeper recognized the MacDonald tartan, and one salesperson at a kilt shop that made custom kilts recognized the IoS, presumably due to its relatively recent fame. No one else really ever even tried to guess them, and most everybody noticed them, commented on their attractiveness and my willingness to wear them as a visitor to Scotland. Many asked what they were, but none seemed more than curious to find out----none seemed to have any secondary motive that I could divine. And, as best I could tell, no disdain for the tartans or my wearing of them.

I think it is likely a lot like Jock says, that most Scots only know their own tartan, and maybe a couple others like the Black Watch which are more famous, but couldn't give a rip what tartan somebody else is wearing at any given time, as long as they are doing so with respect to the heritage in general. (Although I have heard it is not necessarily safe to go sporting your Campbell tartan in certain taverns in the Glencoe area.)

I still have not seen a 4 yd box pleat in person to know whether its appearence is that distinctly different from an 8 yd trad, and know even less about its history or propriety in relation to scottish culture, so I will leave that discussion to the more knowledgeable.


jeff :ootd:

[The Wizard of BC]

We here on X Marks know more about Tartans and Kilts than the general public at large anywhere. N. America, or Scotland.
During my recent Scottish visit I found Scots to be just as ignorant and disinterested in Tartans and Kilts as the people of my home and adopted countries.
The vast majority of Scots I met, and talked to, were just like those on this side of the pond. They did not own a Kilt. They will probably never wear one. They did not know what "their" Tartan looked like, and would not have known the difference in a Box Pleat v.s. a knife pleat, District Tartan v.s. Clan Tartan.
And didn't care.
To most of the Scots I talked to, the Kilt was either something from a history book or something those crazy tourists buy.

So Jock is correct that District Tartan are "irrelevant" to Scots. So are Kilts.
What we members of X Marks sometimes forget is that, to the vast majority of the world a Kilt is something they have only seen in a book, on TV, or in a parade. It simply isn't something that is part of their world.

[Bugbear]

During my two weeks in Scotland last year, when I was kilted every day but one, I wore four different tartans,...
as long as they are doing so with respect to the heritage in general.

It is this that has me troubled. I'm never exactly sure what it means to "respect the heretage" or national dress of Scotland, or more what it is that is being disrespectful to these. It's not that I would want to do that; it is that I'm not sure what "that" is.

All that being said, there is a kilt still hanging in my closet, and I keep thinking that I should move away from the traditional eight yard Scottish kilt to avoid this issue. I'm also not sure what to make of the Wizards post; it's still sinking in...

[Jock Scot]

We here on X Marks know more about Tartans and Kilts than the general public at large anywhere. N. America, or Scotland.
During my recent Scottish visit I found Scots to be just as ignorant and disinterested in Tartans and Kilts as the people of my home and adopted countries.
The vast majority of Scots I met, and talked to, were just like those on this side of the pond. They did not own a Kilt. They will probably never wear one. They did not know what "their" Tartan looked like, and would not have known the difference in a Box Pleat v.s. a knife pleat, District Tartan v.s. Clan Tartan.
And didn't care.
To most of the Scots I talked to, the Kilt was either something from a history book or something those crazy tourists buy.

So Jock is correct that District Tartan are "irrelevant" to Scots. So are Kilts.
What we members of X Marks sometimes forget is that, to the vast majority of the world a Kilt is something they have only seen in a book, on TV, or in a parade. It simply isn't something that is part of their world.

I can't help but agree. With one exception,the Highlands and particularly the Western Highlands and some of the islands, would be more knowledgeable about the kilt than the rest of Scotland.

[Bugbear]

Hmmm, I guess there's six million or so people in Scotland, but it doesn't sound like there are a whole lot of those six million people living in the Highlands.

[Jock Scot]

Hmmm, I guess there's six million or so people in Scotland, but it doesn't sound like there are a whole lot of those six million people living in the Highlands.

As I understand it Ted, less than a million people live in the Highlands and on the islands.I have just found the bit of paper with the information on! Basically if you draw a line through the centre of Perth going East/West coast to coast, then less than a million people live above(north of) that line.So considerably less than a million people would live in the Highlands propper.