Royal Regiment of Scotland

[ziggy]

Indeed! Real kilts without real box pleats!

so unless I am mistaken \ mislead, your "Military Box-Pleated Kilt" in regimental weight black watch tartan would be accurate?

[slohairt]

so unless I am mistaken \ mislead, your "Military Box-Pleated Kilt" in regimental weight black watch tartan would be accurate?

Fairly, especially if made with a high rise of 4 inches, no apron fringe, no keepers, and a solid-coloured waistband. Military box-pleated kilts are really knife-pleated kilts with the facing folded back.

[Woodsheal]

[M. A. C. Newsome]

8, they are real kilts

Just a couple of points.

1) Historically, the male kilt has been made from an average of four yards, single width. The first tailored kilt that survives for us, c. 1794, was a military kilt, for the Gordon Highlanders, and contained just a bit over three yards of cloth. The idea that only eight yard kilts are "real kilts" is just not accurate, and frankly a bit insulting to those who make and wear kilts with less yardage.

2) Even today, I would hazard a guess that most military kilts contain less than eight yards. A lot of military kilts I have personally examined have actually had closer to six yards of cloth. There is no magic rule that says a kilt must have a certain amount of material in it.

[Jock Scot]

Just a couple of points.

1) Historically, the male kilt has been made from an average of four yards, single width. The first tailored kilt that survives for us, c. 1794, was a military kilt, for the Gordon Highlanders, and contained just a bit over three yards of cloth. The idea that only eight yard kilts are "real kilts" is just not accurate, and frankly a bit insulting to those who make and wear kilts with less yardage.

2) Even today, I would hazard a guess that most military kilts contain less than eight yards. A lot of military kilts I have personally examined have actually had closer to six yards of cloth. There is no magic rule that says a kilt must have a certain amount of material in it.

You are of course quite correct, Matt. However, I suspect that NJ may well have had his tongue placed firmly in his cheek when he made that statement. Also I suspect if you asked a Scot what a real kilt was, he would reply that it would have to be tartan and would have to contain 8 yards of wool cloth.Not an inch less. On a historical note, I doubt that many Scots have ever heard of box pleats and would regard anything other than knife pleats as some modern, new fangled idea that some one from Timbuktu has just thought up!Ho hum!

[1oldsarge]

This website may be of interest.
"http://www.blackwatchkitshop.com/shop/index.php"

[slohairt]

Well, tongue in cheek it may have been, but both Matt and I are sponsors on this site and make box-pleated kilts (among other styles). We've heard that remark often enough (especially coming from Scots) that it isn't really amusing anymore. (If it ever was to begin with.) Many members on this forum also wear traditional box-pleated kilts.

Concerning military "box-pleated" kilts, I would definitely agree with Matt that few if any are made from 8 yards of cloth. I don't receive orders for that style often, but I've never made one with more than 7 yards. Indeed, some surplus military kilts are sized so small (26" or 28" waist) that they contain about 5 1/2 yards.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

You are of course quite correct, Matt. However, I suspect that NJ may well have had his tongue placed firmly in his cheek when he made that statement. Also I suspect if you asked a Scot what a real kilt was, he would reply that it would have to be tartan and would have to contain 8 yards of wool cloth.Not an inch less. On a historical note, I doubt that many Scots have ever heard of box pleats and would regard anything other than knife pleats as some modern, new fangled idea that some one from Timbuktu has just thought up!Ho hum!

Jock,

I have no doubt that what you say is true about what the average modern Scot considers a "real kilt." However, just because someone is born and raised in Scotland does not make them an expert on their own country's history. I'm afraid that all too often I have seen evidence that teh average Scot is just as ignorant of Scotland's history as the average American is ignorant of our history! So it's not just a Scottish problem. :-)

The only way to get people to be more aware of the history of the kilt is simply to point out errors where one sees them and make accurate information available.

So I would say that an tartan kilt, made from an average of eight yards of cloth and knife pleated is the most common and recognized form of kilt today, but we still must recognize that, historically, the kilt has been made from as little as three yards of cloth, can be either solid or tartan, and has been made with a variety of styles of pleating.

If more Scots would simply go to their own museums and take a close look at some of the kilts on display there, they might be more open to this fact!

[Jock Scot]

Well, tongue in cheek it may have been, but both Matt and I are sponsors on this site and make box-pleated kilts (among other styles). We've heard that remark often enough (especially coming from Scots) that it isn't really amusing anymore. (If it ever was to begin with.) Many members on this forum also wear traditional box-pleated kilts.

Concerning military "box-pleated" kilts, I would definitely agree with Matt that few if any are made from 8 yards of cloth. I don't receive orders for that style often, but I've never made one with more than 7 yards. Indeed, some surplus military kilts are sized so small (26" or 28" waist) that they contain about 5 1/2 yards.

Alright, NJ must speak for himself,but you might have to accept what I am trying to give you is an honest assesment and I believe it is more or less right as far as Scotland is concerned. I know this is a point of view that is not helpful to your businesses and I am sorry about that, nevertheless I am only giving an honest view of how kilts are percieved over here. In your country the box pleat is known , it is not known well here,the same goes for the amount of cloth that is needed to make a kilt, by the majority of Scots who are not members of Xmarks.

[Jock Scot]

Jock,

I have no doubt that what you say is true about what the average modern Scot considers a "real kilt." However, just because someone is born and raised in Scotland does not make them an expert on their own country's history. I'm afraid that all too often I have seen evidence that teh average Scot is just as ignorant of Scotland's history as the average American is ignorant of our history! So it's not just a Scottish problem. :-)

The only way to get people to be more aware of the history of the kilt is simply to point out errors where one sees them and make accurate information available.

So I would say that an tartan kilt, made from an average of eight yards of cloth and knife pleated is the most common and recognized form of kilt today, but we still must recognize that, historically, the kilt has been made from as little as three yards of cloth, can be either solid or tartan, and has been made with a variety of styles of pleating.

If more Scots would simply go to their own museums and take a close look at some of the kilts on display there, they might be more open to this fact!

Matt, in an ideal world you are of course right(again!). It may surprise you that on the whole Scots have no idea of kilt history, or care, and you really will have to consider that that is true.

So in this imperfect world most Scots have this idea of a REAL kilt being made of 8 yards of tartan wool, knife pleated anything else is not going to meet that perception.Anything else is for the tartan army to wear to a football match or compete in at a highland games. The military may be an exception, but I suspect though, most squaddies do not care how a kilt is made, or how it is pleated.