Royal Regiment of Scotland

[macwilkin]

I really don't think I have the skill, or the patience to be a teacher!

Believe me, there are some days I share that sentiment, Jock.

T.

[Bruno]

Well I do not have any objection to a 5 yard 16 oz wool kilt, set/stripe, knife pleat affair. (personally I do not like look of Box pleats IMO)

I have 2 X 5 yard kilts and a heavy 8 yarder for formal occasions.

I would never dream of wearing a heavy 8 yard for wandering around the Machair. I know many who regard a 5 yard as being acceptable as a kilt in the right circumstances.

I regard it like wearing shorts. Shorts are Ok for the beach walking etc. But not suitable for a formal occasion.

[Tartan Hiker]

(snip)...the only style of kilt considered as authentic by any Scotsman is a tartan, knife-pleated kilt, predominately pleated to the sett with a few pleated to the line...

If my memory serves correctly, pleating to the sett was first documented in 1902 and described at that time as a novel new way to pleat a kilt. That means that there very well may be a few Scots still living that were born before knife pleats to the sett had even been invented.

[dfmacliam]

I, like the 4 yard box pleat, myself... Besides being an old style being brought back.... With the Texas heat.... Summer days it's quite common to see over 100 f 38 c it's a comfortable option. I know it's not for everyone...but since is has a historical past, and not a modern creation... I'll wear it.

I did take nervious jocks response to my question as tongue in cheek.. But since he did mention that they were cutting back... I figured a military box pleat used more material than a knife pleat. Am I wrong?

[Phil]

If my memory serves correctly, pleating to the sett was first documented in 1902 and described at that time as a novel new way to pleat a kilt. That means that there very well may be a few Scots still living that were born before knife pleats to the sett had even been invented.

I seriously doubt that there are any 107 year-old Scots still around. There are, however, a number here who can trace their kilt-wearing traditions back to the early 1950's and to dismiss this in such a way is nothing but an impertinence. Modern re-inventions of our national dress should take account of the culture that actually originated it without trying to re-invent the tradition and culture behind it. There are many differing opinions expressed on this site quoting innumerable "learned" sources. The fact remains, however, that there is probably no-one here other than the native Scots that has worn a kilt prior to 10-20 years ago. Quoting spurious historical "facts" to justify modifying these traditions to suit ones own point of view is easy to do but to try and infer that they have any relevance to a traditional form of Scottish dress is nothing short of re-writing a culture of which you really have no genuine experience or knowledge to suit the circumstances you wish to present.

[Panache]

Phil,

I don't mind in the least being given an insight into how the average modern-day Scot perceives the kilt.

This whole site is about kilts, both modern and traditional.

Kilts and highland dress are a type of fashion.

The thing with fashion is that some things come into an then out of style

They can also come back

If the old style montrose or sherrifmuir doublet is still a valid option then why not an older style of kilt?

At one point pleating to stripe was the norm until some clever kilt maker figured out pleating to sett.

It became the norm

Now some people (perhaps only outside Scotland) are thinking "Gee pleating to the stripe seems a really neat idea"

The marvelous thing about the kilt is that it has never become a period costume piece. It is a valid fashion for a modern world and continues to evolve.

It would be strange indeed if the kilt became less of a costume outside of Scotland than in it.

Looking at how various kilt makers (in Scotland) are now offering Hill walker (5 yarders) or even their own versions of modern/contemporary kilts it is obvious to me that even the Scots themselves have not set all kilt conventions in stone.

Which I think is wonderful

Because it would be sad if kilts were only worn as a costume or something you viewed in a museum.

Cheers

Jamie :ootd:

[Tartan Hiker]

and to dismiss this in such a way is nothing but an impertinence.

Well, i certainly didn't intend to be impertinent. I was just making an observation that the knife pleated kilt pleated to the sett is one of the most recent styles of kilt manufacture.

Quoting spurious historical "facts" to justify modifying these traditions to suit ones own point of view is easy to do but to try and infer that they have any relevance to a traditional form of Scottish dress is nothing short of re-writing a culture of which you really have no genuine experience or knowledge to suit the circumstances you wish to present.

I don't have the time right now to run down this particular quote, but I don't believe that the source is in the least "spurious." If someone has access to this particular quote, please jump in here with a reference. If not I'll try to run it down after work this afternoon.

[Jock Scot]

1940's for me Phil! I too am very uneasy how conclusions are drawn by those that are so far removed from Scotland, it is not to say that those conclusions are necessarily wrong, but they do seem to lack,on occasion, understanding of local conditions,traditions and the way things were done and still are done, sometimes. What concerns me, is the unwillingness of some to want to understand what they are being told by those that live here. I quite accept that many here in Scotland have no idea of their past, but there are others who do have more than a fair idea of how our country has worked and how they have thought and still do think to this day.

The kilt, when all said and done, is Scottish and apart from certain adjustments for weather conditions I cannot really see why the Scots attire,its traditions and conventions should be adjusted in any way, wherever in the world the kilt is worn. If it breaks some countries laws or causes one to question how things are done in Scotland then so be it, don't wear the kilt.

There are at least two threads going on at the moment that are, frankly, totally ignoring the advice given by Scotsmen on Scottish attire and Scottish traditions, I do find it trying and yes I do find it impertinent on occasion. I do try to understand that there are those abroad that are trying to mix Scottish attire and culture with the culture of there own country and sometimes it really is obvious to me that the two really do not mix.

[Woodsheal]

I totally grasp (and respect) the views of Jock and our other Scots friends. I've experienced it firsthand! One of our kilt-night regulars is a marvelous old Scottish gentleman who emigrated to the States some 40 years ago. Victor wears his traditional kilt and accessories impeccably, and is an ongoing inspiration to us recently-kilted pikers.
The first time I wore my box-pleated kilt, he spotted the oddness right off the bat and asked about my "funny-looking" kilt. I explained about the early, historic design of it, but he just sort of rolled his eyes at my departure from orthodoxy (and perhaps sanity!). He still ribs me about my "funny looking kilt" whenever he sees me in it! He had the same reaction to a couple of guys in "great-kilts" when they made an appearance at our kilt night....

[dfmacliam]

I have nothing but respect for Jock, and the other members in Scotland.. I have learned a lot and made choices based on their opinions..one of which, I will only wear one tartan, the other is my newly aquired Marine Corps Regimental tie... I expect to continue to learn and grow with the input of all on this site and hope I can be a positive influence on others because of it..
I hope I was not sounding disrespectful in any way because that was/ would never be my intentions. I do feel a bit bad, because it was the answer to my question that cause the bit of dissention on here.